[cambee]

As those of you who have been helping me with my ‘four teats’ post (thank you) will know, we had a dog get in and worry our sheep 2 weeks before lambing. They’re coloured Ryelands and we are on a gentle hill and for a few minutes they were charging up and down the field, dog in pursuit. The next day we had 2 prolapse. We got the vet out who showed us out to push back in and both sheep now have harnesses on and this seems to be doing the trick. They are due to lamb in the next 4 days. My question is this. I’ve been reading up on other prolapse posts and lots of you say cull next year. This is our first flock. One prolapse is a 5 year old yew (and a tad overweight,always has been). The other is a shearling in prime condition. Together they are 40% of my current flock. I don’t know yet how labour will go but if all is well, would you ‘cull’ as that’s a big loss financially. Also by ‘cull’ do you mean abattoir and eat?

[Backinwellies]

I suspect peoples opinions will differ as to culling  so I'll let them argue that point,  but you can certainly send them off for meat.... will be a bit fatty but slow cooked ....delicious!

[Rosemary]

Personally, I wouldn't keep a sheep that had prolapsed NOW. When I first started I probably would have given her a second go. And probably regretted it.

We culled four ewes two years ago - two nine year old, one seven, one five. The meat (Coloured Ryelands) was fantastic.

[SallyintNorth]

I’d probably cull the older, fatter one but personally I’d give the younger one another chance.  I’d make sure she didn’t get too fat, and of course try to keep stress to a minimum next time. (So sorry to hear about the dog incident, and I know it’s not always possible to avoid such stresses.)

I’d also make sure the ewes have plenty of minerals throughout pregnancy, probably with your breed being prone to ‘doing well’, using a good chelated drench such as Ovithrive rather than a lick or feed.  Being in tip-top condition (without being fat) should help them avoid prolapsing if there is another event another time.

If you do keep one or both on, you will of course be alert for any signs of prolapse and will fit a harness or spoon at the first sign, should there be a recurrence.  So really you’ve little to lose giving the younger one a second chance - but I know others on here have had different outcomes.

As well as keeping them slim, and giving a good chelated drench, also avoid them eating too much forage at a sitting in the later stages of pregnancy.  It might be better to put out a bit of hay three or even four times a day than feed ad-lib (as long as they’re getting enough, of course) to stop them overfilling their bellies at one sitting. 

Hope all goes well with the lambings this time, and whatever you decide about keeping or culling those two, know that you made the decisions with the ewes’ best interests at heart, and feel good about that.  

I don’t suppose you know who owns the dog?  And could ask them to pay for replacement ewes as their dog caused the prolapses?

[twizzel]

I had a 2 year old ewe have a minor prolapse last year first time lambing, at the time I only had 9 ewes. She went to the abattoir with her twins in the summer and made some fantastic mutton. I also had 2 empty ewes- they went to market as culls. In total I culled 30% of my flock which was daunting but likewise when you have a small flock every ewe and lamb counts. I would get rid and use the money to find some nice shearlings this summer. Don’t be afraid to cull out unwanted traits from a small flock, it will make it more profitable and less stress in the end. I’ve a first timer ewe that will go as a cull this year who has absolutely no mothering instinct, not worth the hassle.

[Womble]

OK, so the accepted wisdom is that if a ewe prolapses, she's likely to do it again and should thus be culled (like the others, we've had some fantastic mutton from older ewes that suffered from mastitis so couldn't be bred from again).


However, in this case the prolapses weren't due to any genetic or other underlying factor, but were instead most likely due to the stress and exertion of being chased by the dog.


Does it still follow that they'll be more likely to prolapse again next year though? (I'm asking, not telling!) If yes, the obvious answer is to cull in the autumn ( ) but as Twizzel says, try and get damages off the dog owner.  If no, it's pretty clear to me that they deserve a second chance.

[Marches Farmer]

We did once have a ewe that prolapsed carrying a single and I read about some research that suggested lack of calcium in late pregnancy might be involved.  As she was a cracking ewe in every other way I decided to keep her and give her 5ml of Calciject every week for the last four weeks of pregnancy and she went on to have twins, without prolapsing, for another two lambings.  Hers was the last prolapse we saw in the flock, though, about five years ago.

[Womble]

Yes, I've also read that a lack of calcium (especially in older ewes) can reduce muscle tone and make prolapses more likely.

[SallyintNorth]

OK, so the accepted wisdom is that if a ewe prolapses, she's likely to do it again and should thus be culled

Not by me 

[Dans]

We didn't have any prolapses with last year's lambing (our first) but we did have a small flock (6 ewes) and ended up culling 50% (which sounds crazy when I write it. We have very limited grazing so can't really keep on any unproductive ewes. Only 4 of the ewes scanned as being pregnant so the other two were marked for cull (although we did keep them past the last possible due date just in case). One of the ewes that did lamb (and had twins) had very tiny lambs, abandoned the smallest and was a very poor mother to the other one. We marked her for culling as well and when weaning was done they all went off for mutton (2 and half years old).

In the case of the first 2 ewes it was quite expensive as we paid £60 for them and various foods and vet treatments but I am hoping we should at least break even as they went for a decent price and I am also hoping to sell the skins. The one that gave us twins is slightly better as we have the value of her lambs (a ewe and ram, the latter which will go as hogget) so not quite as bad.

It was a daunting prospect to send off half the flock but we got 3 ewe lambs that can replace (although the small ewe lamb may go for meat too), and looking at the grass we wouldn't have been able to keep on the 3 ewes that were culled. It also got us our first meat customers who are eager for more so it's getting us started in the direction we want to go in. I have to admit though, if we had had more grazing I'd have been tempted to give them all a second go around at lambing, although I may have regretted it with the poor mothering one!

At the end of the day sit and have a good think about it, decide if you want the meat, what you will do with it. Think about your grazing and the number of lambs you have from this lambing and how much extra work the prolapses will be for you if they do reoccur.

Dans

[bj_cardiff]

I was given 5 ewes years ago and was told that one had prolapsed and thought little of it. They all lambed fine the following year. The following year one did prolapse, it was pretty horrible and we had to take the ewe to the vets,  she wore a harness and lambed fine. She was culled then.

I've only had 1 other prolapse since then. The problem I have is once they've done it once, I don't think I could relax about it. If I checked the sheep one night and she'd prolapsed and wasn't pushing and I didn't notice, by the morning the result could be catastrophic.

It could go fine and you could have a set of twins, but if it doesn't it could be an out of hours vet visit and fallen stock coming out (£50 + £30) or  you could sell as a cull for £40 now and save yourself a lot of hassle..

[Womble]

IME, these decisions get easier once you are up to the 'right' number of ewes for your pasture. Assuming a 4-5 year breeding lifespan, once you're at that stage, you're only *able* to keep about a quarter of the ewe lambs born anyway. That then means that you're balancing the potential qualities of your new lambs vs the known good or bad qualities of your existing breeding stock. For me anyway, that's a much easier decision than whether to cull and leave a vacancy.


Nobody has answered my first question yet though, and I do believe it's key here: Because these prolapses were brought on by stress and exertion, does it still follow that they'll be more likely to do it again next year, or are they actually no more risk going forward than any other ewes?

[Dans]

[member=2128]Womble[/member] I've no evidence to draw from but I would have thought it would. If nothing changes then some of the risk factors for prolapse will still be there (overweight, reduced muscle tone) so the chances, whilst probably not 100%, are likely to be increased for a ewe that has already prolapsed. If the weight is kept down it might help but I've no idea how you get a ewe to do their pelvic floor exercises lol!

The stress may play a part in the prolapses in these cases but not all the ewes prolapsed, it stands to reason that the two that did were at a higher risk of it anyway. But as I said, no evidence at all, just my theory.

Dans

[SallyintNorth]

I've only had 1 other prolapse since then. The problem I have is once they've done it once, I don't think I could relax about it. If I checked the sheep one night and she'd prolapsed and wasn't pushing and I didn't notice, by the morning the result could be catastrophic.

It could, but in fact it usually is quite manageable.  In ten years on commercial sheep farms in the north of England, we had one to ten prolapses every year (of 240-540 lambing ewes), and in all that time only had two that turned really nasty.  In general, as long as you get to her and clean it up and reinstate it as soon as you see it, it all turns out fine.  The ones on the hill farm were Texel cross types, lambing outdoors, and the mass would usually be larger than a grapefruit, smaller than a football when we got to them.  We'd wash the mass carefully then sprinkle castor sugar on to reduce the swelling down to about the size of a grapefruit, then, using lube, reinsert it and put a spoon in.  Occasionally the spoon would come out and we'd have to repeat the procedure, and once we had the vet stitch one up with a drawstring that we could untie when she started lambing.

[SallyintNorth]

Nobody has answered my first question yet though, and I do believe it's key here: Because these prolapses were brought on by stress and exertion, does it still follow that they'll be more likely to do it again next year, or are they actually no more risk going forward than any other ewes?

I'm guessing but I think Dans is probably right; the conditions that triggered the prolapsing hopefully won't happen again, but these two prolapsed when others didn't so perhaps have an underlying weakness that might mean they'd be more likely than the others to prolapse again.  However, if ewes are kept slim, lambs aren't overlarge, and feeding is managed so that ewes aren't full to bursting (but do have their nutritional needs met, of course), and the ewes have all the minerals and trace elements they need, then the incidence of prolapsing should be very low - which in a tiny flock, should mean that most years it is zero.  If it isn't, then of course cull any repeat offenders but also look at management, especially feeding and tup, for an underlying cause or exacerbating factor.  (Which is not to imply that all prolapses are avoidable, but there are things that most of us can do to minimise the incidence of them.)