[RUSTYME]

I am getting a couple of young bull calves soon , to rear up and then sell as meat by the lb...(I don't do kilo's ) . Anyway , they will be raised mainly on grass and haylage/hay/silage and some rolled grains ie barley ,oats etc. during winter time . I was wondering what does this sort of meat fetch as a rule now . Not selling to a shop or anything , but to friends and family etc. , who will pay whatever the price (within reason !! ) to get meat that they know is clean from additives and had as good a life as possible.
 I don't want to rip anyone off , nor do I want to lose on the venture . The grass is available for some of the meat so need to know what value the meat would be to work out that cost too.
 I know I can go on the value of meat from the butchers , but that is really a different kettle of fish , so to speak ( sorry about the cross referenced metaphor there !!!). 
 The startup cost is variable, but about £200 per calf , dependent on age, size ,breed , and what is available at the time . They will most likely be dairy shorthorn bullocks , or Welsh blacks .
 I was thinking that I would keep them till they were about 15 months old maybe longer ( can only do one at a time.) . Processing is all home done . I will be helping , but the person butchering is a trained butcher and will do it for some meat . (By the time all the little bits of payment in meat have been accounted for , there will be about 2lb of mince left to sell .. )
 Any thoughts chaps ?

cheers

Russ

[HappyHippy]

Hi Russ,
I've not got any real experience with cows and this is just a general observation - please don't take offence 
All animals are best kept with one of their own kind for company, you mention doing one at a time. I'm assuming this is due to lack of land ? (but you know what they say about assumption) You might be better to look for more land and keep 2 or 3 at a time, this will not only keep them happy (and happy meat is tasty meat ) it'll allow for a bit more 'profit'. If you're going to keep them til 15 months you'll need to think about housing for winter (unless you get really mild winters) because unless you're going for a hardy breed like highlanders etc, they'll possibly lose weight and condition just battling the elements.
Personally I'd avoid dairy breeds and go for something a bit 'meatier' - aberdeen angus, charolais, highlanders. But as I say, I've not done it myself so others might have better advice 
Good luck and keep us posted.
Karen x

[RUSTYME]

hello Karen ,
               yes I know exactly what you are saying about keeping only one at a time . However , I should have explained better ....I meant I could only 'process' ie slaughter and butcher one at a time . I would be keeping at least 2 or 3 at a time , on an ongoing set up ie , get 2 or 3 and start the venture , then after a given time another 2 or 3  and so on . I wouldn't just keep one of anything , if nothing else I would get too attached to it and decide to keep it ...lol 
 Housing for winter is available where they would be kept, shed appx 60'x60' divided into 3 with fenced in yard with water available via outside tap and , a spring that flows into a ditch 20 feet from the shed. Plus the land is right next door to me !!!! Haylage /hay/and silage all available within 1/2 mile . The land is about 29 acres, divided into 1-3 acre fields ,appx.
 The choice of cattle breed is mainly down to what is available from people I know and who can deliver as and when . The dairy short horn I shall be having possibly !!, may be crossed with a beef shorthorn bull , or even an Aberdeen Angus . This will alter the cost of the calves . Either way the short horn is a very good adaptable cow , that should serve me for what I am after .
 The Welsh Black is a very hardy type , and will do well whatever is chucked at it .. within reason . These will be cheaper to buy .
 I will be buying a shorthorn cow or 2 later on , and they will provide me with the calves thereafter , plus loads of milk ...lol. 

cheers

Russ

[HappyHippy]

I did think I might have gotten the wrong end of the stick with the 'one at a time' bit, it sounds like the set up's ideal (I'd be buying a whole herd ) should have known you'd have done your homework Russ 
Hope you manage to get some costs from folk - will make interesting reading.
Karen x

[RUSTYME]

no problem Karen,
                      I do tend to leave out salient details sometimes , so a comment/judgement , although correct in itself ,  can be , as you say , the wrong end of the stick ...
 I just thought I would ask opinions on what I will be doing , and get an idea of prices that are being asked/paid for decent home reared beef .  I can tend to be out of date on such things !!. Basically though , it will make little difference , as even if I sold the meat for £1 a lb , I would still be in pocket , as my costs are going to be very low after the purchase of the calves .
Once I have a couple of my own cows (purchased as young calves for about the same money £200 ish ... dependent on age and wether it is full dairy shorthorn or beef shorthorn cross or any other cross), I will then obviously get a couple of calves every year for the cost of the AI , which I think is about £5 each dependent  on the bulls pedigree.
 Then I get all the milk as well . I go through 12+ pints a week myself so that will save me about £5 a week . Also can make my own butter and cheese etc etc ...  Plus any surplus can go towards rearing any other calves I get and any piggies I get later.... Been setting it all up for ages and can now actually do it !!! 


cheers

Russ
 
 

[belgianblue]

don't raise bulls as their hormones kick in at 12 months and the meat becomes tainted as when they get older,( butchers prefer bulls at younger age.)

steers and heifers are better,  i'm going to say to you the better looking the calf is ie: good muscling, an good loin,
don't touch friesland/holsteins they maybe look sweet as they are younger but as they grow (bellys and legs).

feed hay, haylage, whatevers going, but you need more than just oats, 15% protein feed will be required to be fed (ie better quality carcase)

[RUSTYME]

yes once again my omission of detail .. and incorrect terminology ... they will have had the chop if they are little boys, but it may well be beef x dairy girls I get , a bit cheaper than dairy x dairy girls or beef x dairy boys  .
 As for feed , they will be on grass mainly , with the addition of hay etc during winter when they are inside, and then grain of some sort , oats, barley etc ... dependent  on what I grow. I used to work on a few farms years ago that used this feed system and all their beef boys came up top weight ok . In fact it was on one of the farms that I contracted farmers lung whilst rolling barley in the shed (god that sounds like I am some pervert or something  ..lol  ) .  There will also be the addition of comfrey and veg, such as  cabbage , mangles , kale etc. I am not going down the road of manufactured feed at all , only what I can grow on the land .
It is just stepping back a few years really , and doing it the way it was only a few short years ago . I don't mind if they take a bit longer to reach weight , or if they end up a bit smaller ? , I am not selling to a shop who want an exact article , or doing it on a get them to weight as quick as possible on as little as possible basis . Just raising good , clean , healthy stock , fed on home grown feed.
 

cheers

Russ

[VSS]

You will be very lucky to buy dairy shorthorn heifer calves for any price - we have looked and looked and looked and they are lile golddust. We bought an old cow that woul have been culled from a commercial herd and she did us two years. That would be enough to get you started. I think your calf prices are a bit low though - we have had to pay iro £240 this spring for Hereford X Holstein heifers. Bull calves would have been over £300.

If you manage to get a dairy cow, would recomend you cross her back to a beef bull as you will get a much better meat animal. We usually use a Lim on our cows, but they are already a dairy cross. For crossing straight on to a dairy breed I would use a British Blue. I also think you AI costs might be abit out - we use Genus as they guarantee to come the same day if you ring them before 10am - usually around £17 per insemination - extra if you want a particular breed that they don't carry in stock, in which case they would have to order in and store at your expense.

[RUSTYME]

http://www.shorthorn.co.uk/dairy_shorthorn_2007/cattleforsale.html

scroll down that page and the semen straw is there ... That particular one may well be out of date now , but I was talking to the chap who has the dairy shorthorn herd , night before last , and he knows of someone who supplies at about £5-£8 a go . But the herd owner also has his own shorthorn bull , unrelated to any stock I would buy off him , and I can run my cows with his bull if I want ... till the deed is done.
 The prices I have, are from him two nights ago , and aren't that much different from a year or so ago . The price of £200 is variable to an extent though , not a definite sum , may well go up to about £300 as I say dependent on age , size , sex and x type .
 Any beef x I did in the future with any cows I get , will be with something on the lines of  Beef shorthorn , Aberdeen Angus , Hereford , Welsh Black etc ... none of the huge continental types . They would require too much high protein feed  to get to weight ...

cheers

Russ

[doganjo]

Sounds like you've got it pretty well sussed, Russ.  If you know all the costs or can make an educated guess, and can get a rough idea of percentage dead weight to live weight from your farmer friend, then you can work out your cost per lb (or Kilo if anyone else wants to try)  Build in some labour costs and that will give you a basis for your selling price.  Easy to do on a  spreadsheet (see below - no labour costs built into this and just a wild guess at the figures), but here's a more complicated American version
http://hpranchpracticum.com/UCOP/blank%20UCOP%20calculator.pdf

The more accurate and complete your figures the closer the end figure will be.  Good luck - I used to do thsi for a living so I am not really a SAD person!

Beef prices      

Cost of calf                                         £   250

Cost of feeding for 18 months              £450

Cost of housing for 18 months            £150

Vet costs                                         £   200

Total costs                                        £1050
      
Live weight                                       kg300

Dead weight percentage after wastage   85%

Dead weight                                   kg255

cost per kilo                                     £4.12

Cost per lb                                       £1.87

[RUSTYME]

cheers Annie ,
                  somewhat similar to my workings  out , well in method anyway . 
   Item                       cost 
 cost of calf          :    £250
 haylage 6 mths     :    £236
 barley/wheat/oats :    £192
 Vet etc               :    £200

 Total                   :   £878

I have left out land rent and housing as that will be paid in meat , so for just one it would work out dear but for the following stock the cost comes down a lot .
 I have also left out my labour , as on such a small venture it would most likely put it in the red . My time is my own , and I would be doing this anyway even if I didn't sell any meat . However, I can't eat half a ton of beef !!! . So I will be selling the surplus really .
Also feed costs would be different from those above anyway , as I will be growing my own wheat, barley, oats and rye , 2 to 3 acres initially , and I will also be making my own hay/haylage/silage .
 I will also be getting my own cows to breed with , so the cost of the calves would go as well . It is therefore only the initial calf purchase that will take the balance to the level or maybe even leave me out of pocket .
 

cheers

Russ

[doganjo]

So all you need now is an approximation of dead weight and wastage and you can work out what to charge your friends and family..............................  Good luck, Russ.

[RUSTYME]

It seems stock kept till 2 years of age but fed on just grass and silage etc , is gaining in popularity again . That would suit me even better , and I could easily take the slaughter age from 15 mths to 24 without too much hassle . Plus the feeding on grass only would really suit me much better .
 Getting hold of the farmer is a nightmare ..lol, but from what I have seen so far , beef shorthorn x's are reaching about, ( these figures are theirs and so in kilo's) , 650-700 kg live , with a kill out of about 50% , and a  357 kg deadweight average . These figure were from a few different farms but raised the same , on grass only .
 Just converted the weight into proper money ( ie British not Euro crap!!) , and they are as follows :
 
 
                              kilos           lbs
 live weight           650 - 700  = 1433 - 1543.2 
 dead weight            357       =  787.1

 Therefore , if my maths are correct ? about £1.11 1/2 p a pound to break even on first year costs ,ie  buying in young stock and with cost of  feeding grains  still in the equation. I left those costs in to balance up appx extra cost of keeping longer if fed on the grass only system .
 Not bad , plenty of room for some spare cash , especially if start up cost were significantly higher for whatever reason. 

  Cheers

Russ
 

[shetlandpaul]

sounds like a great plan. your friends will be very keen on that beef at even 3 or 4 times that return. go for it.

[RUSTYME]

yes I thought about the same sort of figure, £3.50 ish .That gives them lovely fresh , clean ( no chemicals) organically grown , meat at a fair price , that gives me some return, and allows me to continue to rear the cattle and supply them on a continual basis .  Not very often everyone is a winner , but sometimes it can work out ... fingers crossed ..lol

cheers

Russ