[CarolineR]

Hi Pharnorth!
As you say, I completely understand why smallholders have to use up big bottles, but there are two wee considerations why I wouldn't do it with Zolvix:
It's prescription only because it is best used under vet advice to keep it as "safe" from resistance as possible - so if you were wanting to use up the rest of the bottle, I'd always check with your vet first that your intended use this year is suitable.
I wouldn't use it "routinely" on goats (it was given to your goats for a clinical reason, which is great, but unless that clinical reason has continued, then I wouldn't continue to give it to the goats, even if your vet advises you that your intended use for "routine" worming of sheep this year is fine. UNLESS - your vet advises you that the clinical reason they prescribed it for the goats last year definitely still applies this year, which of course it might - I don't know enough about the clinical situation to comment).
There is another long story behind that, involving a mixed sheep and goat farm, New Zealand, and the first recorded incidence of Zolvix resistance only two years after the drug was launched...but again it might have to wait! All goat worming is off licence anyway, so your vet should always be consulted when worming goats (a really quick free phone chat would do), but the goat dosages in most wormer families is different from the dose you give to sheep (so much difference that I do a separate goat worming and vaccination talk from the sheep worming and vaccination talk).
In short, of course your vet had good reason to prescribe it last year, but, with Zolvix, it would be a really good idea to double check your plans on the phone with them this year, and I wouldn't use it in the goats unless your vet confirms that the same clinical reason still applies this year in your particular case.
Your next move will probably involve a different wormer family - do you know what family your original resistance problems were with? That'll inform your choice. I'd avoid Moxidectin in the goats for now if possible, unless, again, your resistance problems require it. One thing's for sure - whatever you discuss using, a post-dosing efficacy check would definitely be a great next move after the next family of wormer. Great that you have done it for the Zolvix too, it seems that you are already on the ball.
The lasting effects of the "purge" depends on your pasture actually, and your pasture management. Sheep develop an immunity to worms as they get older, and so they are less likely to get more worms, and often need worming less and less.
Goats do not do this, and often need worming regularly throughout life, both to stop them getting ill and to stop them pooing out so many worm eggs that your pasture becomes riddled and overcomes the immune system of your sheep by sheer weight of numbers, giving them worms.
Seems strange that goats and sheep look so similar but are so different, until you realise that sheep evolved as grazers and so needed to develop immunity to all the worms that live at the base of grass blades, while goats evolved as browsers, climbing cliffs/trees/bushes to nibble leaves, fresh soft bark, herby tips etc - where no worms live - so never developed an immunity to worms!
C

[Jukes Mum]

...and again I have to say how lucky we are to have such experts on here who are willing to share such fab advice 

[Womble]

Superb, thanks Caroline!


I'd love to see SCOPS using their influence to persuade the manufacturers to make smaller bottles available to smallholders. For example, I just bought a 2.5 litre bottle of Levamisole, which has a 12 month shelf life. That's 300 adult doses!  OK, it wasn't all that expensive, but really all I need is half a litre at most.

Likewise, I just bought 25 doses of Dectomax in order to quarantine treat one incoming tup and two outgoing ones. That sort of wastage is one of the things that makes our 'cost per head' for keeping sheep higher than it is for the big boys. That's a real shame, since as you can see from this thread, there's a lot of enthusiasm amongst smallholders for getting it right.

[pharnorth]

Caroline, I was concerned for the reasons you mention so did talk with my vet first and they ok'd my use for this occasion based on ensuring we got the right clinical outcome and also I'd looked up the NZ case (I used to work in this field) I am on a very different scale and there were some key husbandry aspects that are very different (I am pleased to say). Nonetheless the £20m or so it will take to develop another class of wormer puts my reluctance to waste a few ml of  Zolvix into perspective. Womble make a good point but I am also aware the cost of producing mini packs in production terms are high. There is also the disposal, Moxidectin has some substantial environmental risks so is it safer to pour away excess or through a sheep?  Of course the ideal solution to managing the pack size question and disposal already exists- it's a vet.

I am finding it is a more useful discussion with the Vet as I have more experience of my flock and the FEC post dosing. I don't know in detail what was the basis of the original resistance problem but I doubt they would have gone for Zolvix without using Ivermectin first so it will be interesting to see if they recommend going to that or right back to good old albendazole as that would not have been used on this flock, or on these pastures for some 20 years. My first job nearly 40 years ago was QC testing albendazole.

[GrannyAching]

Likewise, I just bought 25 doses of Dectomax in order to quarantine treat one incoming tup and two outgoing ones. That sort of wastage is one of the things that makes our 'cost per head' for keeping sheep higher than it is for the big boys. That's a real shame, since as you can see from this thread, there's a lot of enthusiasm amongst smallholders for getting it right.

.

Did you ask your vet if you could buy single doses? Each dose is pretty expensive but not as much as a whole bottle.

[CarolineR]

Hi everyone,

Just so you know, we're doing a free talk on Fluke.

I mention it because, if it goes alright, the next one will be on worming, so it's slightly relevant to this thread!
Its online, live, and is quite easy to join - I am not a "techie" at all, and I can handle this one - and we have options for those with poor connectivity.

See below. TAS-er's and my Smallholder mailing club of around 250 members are getting the link first, but in a day or two I will open it up to twitter and other portals - numbers are limited, so if you want on, get registered! The link is below.

Caroline

(If you want on my mailing list, email me at caroline.robinson@sac.co.uk to get invites sent directly)

Register for Liver Fluke for Small Farmers, Smallholders and Crofters on Sep 13, 2016 7:30 PM BST at:

https://attendee.gotowebinar.com/register/4129189906966765827

Category: Sheep, Cattle, Alpacas, Llamas, Deer and other stock.

As autumn has arrived, many stock keepers will now be thinking particularly about the risk of liver fluke in their stock and how to fight this devastating parasite. Whether you would like to learn all about fluke and its management/prevention on your holding, or whether you would just like to refresh your existing knowledge and get up-to-date on the latest developments and advice, this free webinar will provide you with the reliable, good quality information you need to help your stock - with particularly reference to the difficulties faced by those with a limited acreage.

The webinar is very easy to join, is free of charge and will be live. The talk will be followed by a question and answer session by the speaker, Caroline Robinson of SAC Consulting: Veterinary Services, where there will be an opportunity to type or ask your own questions, and to share in the experiences of other small farmers, smallholders and crofters.

NB There will be a telephone option for those in remote areas with very slow internet connection - please contact us to discuss this: caroline.robinson@sac.co.uk

You can even join us on your smartphone or tablet by downloading the GoToWebinar app!

The webinar talk is free, but numbers are limited - so if you would like to join, please do register as soon as you can to avoid disappointment - use the link provided.

SAC Consulting: Veterinary Services is part of SRUC (Scotland's Rural College) and provides diagnostic services, advice and knowledge transfer to vets in practice, farmers, smallholders, crofters and the Scottish Government among others. This talk is funded by the Scottish Government's Public Good Veterinary and Advisory Service.

 After registering, you will receive a confirmation email containing information about joining the webinar.

 

[silkwoodzwartbles]

Sounds ace, I've registered! 

[pharnorth]

Me too

[DartmoorLiz]

Me too.  At last! a vet that want to treat sheep as more than "small cows".  Thank you CarolineR, you can count me in.   

[Dogwalker]

Is there a way of listening later if I can't do that time on that day.
I'm interested but out on Tuesday evenings from 7.

[Cuddles]

I just bought a 2.5 litre bottle of Levamisole, which has a 12 month shelf life. That's 300 adult doses!

SNAP!  and I've got massive flock of 6 ewe's!

What are the legalities/practicalities of small holders sharing meds like wormers?  Or could we call it buying doses from other smallholders?  I seem to remember this being discussed in previous posts but I cant remember what the general opinions were.

[Foobar]

You know what would be really useful is if the SCOPs anthelmintics booklet listed the sizes available for each product!!  Would save us all a lot of time .
I have an old copy with hand written scribbles on which marks the products that are available in small, like 1 litre, bottles etc.  (You can cross reference with NOAH (and the Norbrook catalogue on their website etc) to find out packing quantities if you (like me) are so inclined .)

[pharnorth]

Regarding the legality of sharing because they are not prescribed for individual sheep I think it is a question of being honest when you purchase it.  if it is to be split by two or three holding numbers and owners technically that should be mentioned.

[DartmoorLiz]

Shall we start a wormer bank, it would work a bit like lamb bank putting people with surplus in touch with people who want.