[Tim W]

So what's your FEC regime then Tim?  Do you take samples from individual animals before and after drenching for instance?

I FEC mobs every week or so to monitor egg rise in lambs and pasture egg levels and treat accordingly, I always do an efficacy test after worming----this way I know which drugs work best at which time of year on which farms
(I also try to manage challenge by rotating grazing etc but this is not always possible)

We (as a breeding company) do about 1200 individual FEC on lambs every year to establish which have better worm resistance , we can then select breeding stock on this information once it has been incorporated into an EBV --- to build up this database to provide accurate EBVs takes time (and money) but is paying off

[pharnorth]

Last year I did the FEC, got the results over the phone, horses were moderate, goats were high, sheep were low to moderate.  I wormed them all according to Vets instructions. A couple of weeks later Vet came out to tend a lame ram.  "Your worm counts are very high I have bought the medication for them". "But they weren't that bad and I have only recently done them". "They definitely need doing again the results are dreadful". .......

Anyway turns out about 2 days after I sent my samples in my neighbour sent his in and they were his results not mine.

I was interested in one of the other threads about getting training on doing FECs myself sometime as it is not very high tech.

[DartmoorLiz]

Wow! Thank you all so much for your candid replies.


It all comes down to striking a balance between focusing on the future national flock or on immediate returns.






I've decided that to pay for vet advice and not take it is too foolish even for me so here's my plan of action: Zolvax the whole flock asap.  Hopefully the currently thin ewes will put on some condition before they are sold.  I'll keep all female lambs as flock replacements for the time being - I have no idea whether their father is good or bad at this stage and I need to replace the proven poor ewes with something.  Consider mineral bolus for the remaining ewes when I get blood test results.  That way I am dealing with the immediate welfare issue of worms while not compromising the future health of the flock.


For the future, I'll find a way of regularly FECing. 

[Foobar]

Zolvax?  Really?!

Do you have evidence of wormer resistance then?

[fsmnutter]

I second advising against zolvix.
If you have a high worm burden on the pasture then unless there is proven resistance in your worms I would not recommend zolvix.
This will kill all the worms in the sheep (providing you dose correctly to the highest weight with correctly calibrated guns so as not underdosing) because there is as yet no reported resistance. But you have a lot of worm eggs and juvenile stages on the pasture.
Zolvix is designed as a quarantine wormer - for buying in stock, treat them with zolvix so they bring no worms onto your land, or if you are moving onto bona fide clean pasture with no sheep for years, then you will preserve that clean pasture.
I would think you'd be better using one of the older classes, probably an ivermectin (macro cyclic lactone, ml, clear wormer) which have very low reports of resistance, and doing a faecal sample before, and at the manufacturer recommended period after treatment to check there is not resistance. This way you haven't exposed the worms on your farm to the big guns, so they will work in future.

[Rosemary]

Another point from Rosemary's post is that changing class of wormer from year to year also speeds up resistance as the worms will develop a little bit of resistance to the class in use that year, but not lose the resistance to the previous class of wormers, so will quite quickly be resistant to more than one drug. Instead it is advised to follow the guidelines on scops and use one class of wormer as advised until resistance shows (which may be decades away if used as carefully as possible) then use another class to which they show no resistance.

I've had a read through the SCOPS site and I can't see where it advises not to chnage the wormer group every year. Can you point me to it please [member=26799]fsmnutter[/member] ?

[Anke]

Another point from Rosemary's post is that changing class of wormer from year to year also speeds up resistance as the worms will develop a little bit of resistance to the class in use that year, but not lose the resistance to the previous class of wormers, so will quite quickly be resistant to more than one drug. Instead it is advised to follow the guidelines on scops and use one class of wormer as advised until resistance shows (which may be decades away if used as carefully as possible) then use another class to which they show no resistance.

I've had a read through the SCOPS site and I can't see where it advises not to chnage the wormer group every year. Can you point me to it please [member=26799]fsmnutter[/member] ?

I have spoken to my vet about it, and they also recommend using one class of wormer UNTIL I get resistance, and not change annually. I am still on Oramec (for both goats and sheep, but have a low worm problem, just did the lambs as they had mucky bums, but the adults are fine) and have been for over 5 years... (I am running an almost closed flock at the moment for both sheep and goats - and from past experience it certainly helps!)

I am actually much more concerned about fluke and resistance to flukicides, as it seems much less likely that the adult sheep will develop some tolerance (as they do with worms), and if it ever gets into the goat herd...

[fsmnutter]

http://www.scops.org.uk/content/SCOPS-Technical-Manual-4th-Edition-updated-September-2013.pdf
At the bottom of page 29, section 5.6 deals with rotation of anthelminthics, and says that the rotation of groups was previously advised but as resistant alleles increase in the population it becomes less likely to be effective. They don't outright say "use one wormer until you measure resistance" but this is the advice that is being promoted by the likes of the SRUC labs that deal with a lot of the faecal testing and surveillance of disease in Scotland and makes sense in the context of the SCOPS information and scientific principles of how resistance develops.
Hope that helps

[Foobar]

What is important is to choose the right product for the parasite that you are trying to kill.  This will probably mean you really need to use more than one wormer type throughout the year.  i.e. for me, I would use a white (BZ) wormer in early spring on the lambs that were suffering from nematodirus, and then a clear (ML) wormer later in the year for general roundworms.  You could use the clear wormer for the nematodirus but in order to prevent (or lessen) the likelihood of resistance then you use the white wormer instead, which although there are many roundworms that are already resistant to white wormers, nematodirus isn't one of them.
And I would have a separate flukicide product (never a combination one), and use that when required.  In fact the same goes for flukicides, there are times of year when you need to use triclabendazole for immature fluke but other times when you can get away with closantel, so as not to encourage resistance of triclabendazole.

[Foobar]

...also the benefit of using a white wormer for nematodirus in the spring is that you can feel more comfortable using it without getting a FEC done first, as FECs are not always helpful in identifying this worm.  Like a sacrificial wormer, you can use it knowing that you probably aren't going to make it's resistance problem any worse (because it's already so bad) .

[Rosemary]

...also the benefit of using a white wormer for nematodirus in the spring is that you can feel more comfortable using it without getting a FEC done first, as FECs are not always helpful in identifying this worm.  Like a sacrificial wormer, you can use it knowing that you probably aren't going to make it's resistance problem any worse (because it's already so bad) .

That's what we do - we worm with Albex (which we have for the cows anyway) agains Nematodirus - and if we get any other positive effects, then good and well.

[Rosemary]

http://www.scops.org.uk/content/SCOPS-Technical-Manual-4th-Edition-updated-September-2013.pdf
At the bottom of page 29, section 5.6 deals with rotation of anthelminthics, and says that the rotation of groups was previously advised but as resistant alleles increase in the population it becomes less likely to be effective. They don't outright say "use one wormer until you measure resistance" but this is the advice that is being promoted by the likes of the SRUC labs that deal with a lot of the faecal testing and surveillance of disease in Scotland and makes sense in the context of the SCOPS information and scientific principles of how resistance develops.
Hope that helps

Yes, it does - thanks. I'll go back and review my sheep health plan on that basis. WE have a yellow wormer this year so will use that and do post use FECs to check the efficacy.

[Tim W]

using the correct wormer (most effective) at the right time for the best response is very important

I take regular FEC on each farm throughout the season and know what works, where & when

For instance at Farm B where I lamb 200 ewes every year I have a small nemo problem in the spring and if I have to treat for it I know that a white drench is effective
 In mid season the strongyles are a big problem and clear drenches have a poor efficacy at this time so I use a yellow drench
Later on in September /October there is a different population of strongyles that flourish and they only respond to a clear drench
Late nemo rises are becoming more common and these guys seem to be more resistant to the white drenches (no surprise there) so If they become significant I have to use a different wormer ---and I am not sure which one works best yet but with constant monitoring I will find out

[CarolineR]

Hi there,
Amazing thread, it makes me really happy to see people discussing worming, it's so important and there are obviously so many of you out there who are interested in getting it right.
I just wanted to clear up a couple of misunderstandings. The quoted paragraph on SCOPS doesn't actually mean to use one class of wormer until you get resistance, then move onto another. What it actually meant was closer to Foobar's point i.e. that if you want to do things reasonably conscientiously, then you definitely want to rotate wormers (and most people start off by rotating a different class per year), but that won't be enough - you need to try to do good pasture management as an important part of your regime too. But if you REALLY want to do things the best gold standard way, then you work out what worms you will be having problems with at different times of year, then rotate a different class almost per season, targeted at the relevant worms.
Unfortunately, this is not always possible for smallholders due to big bottles, small flocks, and cost, so at present we advise most smallholders to rotate different families per year, as many couldn't afford to buy a different big bottle per season. But we NEVER ever advise to use one class until you develop resistance - I could talk to you for an hour on this (and quite frequently do!) with stories to explain why. I'll be doing a free webinar soon for anyone interested! (Sounds thrilling, eh?  )
Also, Zolvix is fine to use - under vets advice, and for good clinical reasons (not just "if you have resistance" or quarantine-only). In fact, I just received a letter from the Sheep Vet Society, a community of the most sheep- obsessed vets and top flight experts with extra qualifications, saying us vets need to find ways to persuade more people to accept Zolvix as part of a CAREFUL parasite control plan, to extend the life of all our wormers, as people were reluctant to take it up, and again, there is a whole big explanation behind that, which I can give in detail when I do the free webinar.
For anyone wondering where I might get the authority to correct the interpretation of the comment on the SCOPS page and on the advice given by SRUC vets  - I'm one of the SRUC vets and I just got off the phone with one of the people who contributes to SCOPS.
Brilliant, brilliant thread, and I would just like to say to anyone I may have disagreed with above, please do not ever feel that I have invalidated your contribution by my comments - all contribution is very important, because it gives rise to conversations like this, and I really don't want to step on any toes as I think you are all fab for discussing it. There is no such thing as a "bad" constructive contribution, because it allows for more information to be discussed.
Hope this helps to clarify.
Caroline

[pharnorth]

Very helpful [member=24086]CarolineR[/member]   I would love to hear the webinar. Also reassuring. I have just got my FECs back for goats and sheep, both negligible. As expected as they were dosed with Zolvix end of June. However, as you elude to, this year I was using Zolvix for practical reasons rather than for best practice; it was prescribed last year on some of the bought in goats as they had resistance issues and consequently I would either have to waste it as it goes out of date or use it until finished. The interesting question now is how long will 'negligible' phase last and what wormer regime follows from this Zolvix purge?