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Author Topic: Planning for a caravan - UPDATE - 'Storing' a caravan/vehicles.  (Read 9697 times)

BrimwoodFarm

  • Joined May 2016
    • Brimwood Farm
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Hi all,

I was hoping you savvy lot could shed some light on laws around putting a caravan on land.

I have 40 acres of farmland in Suffolk. There's a single barn remaining after the other buildings were sold. In the future I intend to seek planning permission to build a farmhouse so I can build a proper smallholding, but until then I wanted to put a caravan inside the barn and use it as a basecamp a few times a year so that I can a) spend holidays on the land I've inherited and b) work the land - there's A LOT of maintenance to do because it's been neglected for near-on two decades. I live two hours away so it's not feasible to have livestock and it's a bit of a pain having to drive up to do a hard days graft and then have a two journey home again.

***UPDATE***

I WAS correct, and they've agreed that I can have a caravan onsite for 28 days. I'm now wondering about rules regarding 'storing' vehicles and caravans on site. Could I use the caravan for 28 days and then store the van for the remainder of the year? That's my idea...though I expect some form of PP may still be required.

It's frustrating because when I was growing up my granddad always allowed his friend to park her caravan on the land around the year. There's also an ancient, dilapidated caravan on the site already but it looks like the scene of a murder - I wouldn't want to step inside!  :o


*********

I contacted the LA but they said I needed planning permission even for staying in the caravan for less than 28 days per year <- I thought this was allowed, 28 days in any given one year period.

I've found a lot of stuff online but most of it is dated back in 2008 or before. I'm not sure if the laws have changed since then. Any ideas?
« Last Edit: August 17, 2016, 01:15:32 pm by BrimwoodFarm »
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landroverroy

  • Joined Oct 2010
Re: Planning for a caravan
« Reply #1 on: August 16, 2016, 04:31:25 pm »
 If the barn was used for agriculture in 2013 you should be able to get permitted development for change of use to a dwelling. (This is not planning permission)
 Look up agricultural permitted development - change of use to dwelling.

 There is, however a time limit for the conversion - 3 years I believe. So you can't just start the work and then leave it for ages.
 So if you can't do the development in that time, I would just put your caravan in your building and use it periodically as you want. Will anyone know? If the LA query it you can deny staying there and say it's just for storage of stuff. Can't see anyone camping outside to see if you go home before midnight each night.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2016, 04:37:56 pm by landroverroy »
Rules are made:
  for the guidance of wise men
  and the obedience of fools.

BrimwoodFarm

  • Joined May 2016
    • Brimwood Farm
    • Facebook
Re: Planning for a caravan
« Reply #2 on: August 16, 2016, 04:44:26 pm »
Thanks! I didn't know about this - I'll look it up.

We couldn't feasibly convert the barn as it's a dutch, open sided barn - asbestos roof, steel supports etc. The whole thing will need bringing down in the future for a new building to go up.

From what I've been reading it'll have to be used to store agricultural stuff, right? So obviously my scythes and equipment, and a kettle to boil water to sterilise 'stuff' and blankets that are use to catch fruit under trees etc.  ;D

I do get they don't want random people just camping out all over, but surely having a caravan on 40 acres of land that's been in my family since 1914 to use as a base to actually WORK and BETTER the land shouldn't require so much red tape!

AndynJ

  • Joined Sep 2010
  • uk
  • Says it as it is. don't like it don't look
Re: Planning for a caravan
« Reply #3 on: August 16, 2016, 07:28:13 pm »
If you own in excess of 16 acres (memory) then you have rights for camping.
A static caravan and a touring caravan are 2 different things
If you want a touring caravan to use for holiday purposes only that's easy, its a simple application to LA for Certified location permission allowing camping or touring caravan.
If you want a static its a planning application if you want it for holidays only for yourself then its quite easy, a simple application for temporary siting (25 years) you will be expected to agree to lots of things one being that you must pay council tax at a property in the uk and submit that annually to LA

If you wish to site anything and use it for maintenance of land then this comes within Chapter 7 a Chapter 7 application will generally cost in excess of £10,000 and expect to spend approx. £250,000 in order to get temporary permission to site a static for purposes of maintenance of land.
Your acreage allows for barn or storage unit if your barn is open then a 2nd enclosed barn is the answer, you don't need planning as such you submit the design size and positioning of the building planning then have 28 days to object, they can and will object on positioning and generally on size they want minimum size for your requirements.
Hope this helps

BrimwoodFarm

  • Joined May 2016
    • Brimwood Farm
    • Facebook
Re: Planning for a caravan
« Reply #4 on: August 16, 2016, 07:36:21 pm »
This helps A LOT @AndynJ , thanks!

I'm assuming with a touring caravan you tow it on and then remove it after, and a static is just left there all year round (which is ideally what I want to do). An application for a temporary siting for holiday use would be ideal actually as that's exactly what I want it for; to holiday in throughout the year, both enjoying/working the land and also using it as base for trips around the county.

The legislation for just putting a caravan on site has made me wince at the potential planning pitfalls ahead of me when applying to actually tear the barn down and build a dwelling! However, in some ways, getting involved with the council now and being ever professional etc paves the way, i hope, for conversations in the future.

BrimwoodFarm

  • Joined May 2016
    • Brimwood Farm
    • Facebook
Re: Planning for a caravan
« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2016, 09:04:41 pm »
Why are things never simple? LA has a long list of planning permission forms - do you think there's one for a temporary static caravan siting? Nope! And on the general planning permission form there's no mention of caravans in the various dwelling options!

Wouldn't it be nice if life just went the way you'd like once in a while?!  ;)

greenbeast

  • Joined Jul 2014
Re: Planning for a caravan - UPDATE - 'Storing' a caravan/vehicles.
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2016, 06:49:49 pm »
Don't apply for anything.

Put it on, use it to stay overnight a max of 28 days a year and don't make it too domestic.

Wait for them to come to you. You are allowed a tea room if you are working on the land, which you stated you will be.

greenbeast

  • Joined Jul 2014
Re: Planning for a caravan - UPDATE - 'Storing' a caravan/vehicles.
« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2016, 06:51:43 pm »
You should only look to apply for any kind of permission is you intended to live/stay there permanently

BrimwoodFarm

  • Joined May 2016
    • Brimwood Farm
    • Facebook
Re: Planning for a caravan - UPDATE - 'Storing' a caravan/vehicles.
« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2016, 07:06:54 pm »
@greenbeast yeah - I was thinking that too. Shove it in the barn, use it a max of 28 days per year and then store all the tools in it too. Are the council really going to count how many days I sleep overnight in it?! And, seriously, I doubt anyone's going to rat on me - it's extremely rural; no dog walking routes, footpaths or anyone. And the guy who bought the old farm buildings and turned them into holiday lets has made some of the field he also built into lawn, so he's not exactly lived by the rules either!

greenbeast

  • Joined Jul 2014
Re: Planning for a caravan - UPDATE - 'Storing' a caravan/vehicles.
« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2016, 07:14:48 pm »
@greenbeast yeah - I was thinking that too. Shove it in the barn, use it a max of 28 days per year and then store all the tools in it too. Are the council really going to count how many days I sleep overnight in it?! And, seriously, I doubt anyone's going to rat on me - it's extremely rural; no dog walking routes, footpaths or anyone. And the guy who bought the old farm buildings and turned them into holiday lets has made some of the field he also built into lawn, so he's not exactly lived by the rules either!

People have been known to keep diaries of other's staying on the land.
Realistically if you aren't living there and you get a visit, it should be fairly obvious. Tools is definitely a good idea.
We had a visit when we put two touring caravans on for a toilet and tool storage. No drama

BrimwoodFarm

  • Joined May 2016
    • Brimwood Farm
    • Facebook
Re: Planning for a caravan - UPDATE - 'Storing' a caravan/vehicles.
« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2016, 07:58:32 pm »
@greenbeast Good to know. Yeah, I mean surely if they come to inspect a couple of times and I'm never there and there's no sign I have been, it'll be pretty obvious it's not domestic.

greenbeast

  • Joined Jul 2014
Re: Planning for a caravan - UPDATE - 'Storing' a caravan/vehicles.
« Reply #11 on: August 20, 2016, 08:05:31 pm »
Indeed and they've had budgets cut as much as every othet council dept. They can't always afford to send bods out for silly things

AndynJ

  • Joined Sep 2010
  • uk
  • Says it as it is. don't like it don't look
Re: Planning for a caravan - UPDATE - 'Storing' a caravan/vehicles.
« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2016, 10:24:00 am »
@BrimwoodFarm the planning department do not understand every aspect of planning, permitted developments or historical rights.
Look into certified locations, this is quite a good way to work the system, you do not need pp for a CL you require a licence provided by planning department. Only highways or English Heritage, or Enviroment agency can stand between you and a CL licence.
You will need a toilet/shower block, which is worth while applying for as a timber temporary building if they refuse go for a towable trailer :-) here comes your first static.
Once you have done a couple of years of tourers coming and going, (Open it for camping to others just so that people see vans coming and going) then drop in another static behind the toilet block, 4 years on you apply for a certificate of lawfulness.

If you want residential permission you need to register your driving licence, passport and bank details at that address, it needs to be done day 1 of the static going on site otherwise the 4 years become 10

landroverroy

  • Joined Oct 2010
Re: Planning for a caravan - UPDATE - 'Storing' a caravan/vehicles.
« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2016, 09:40:40 am »
@BrimwoodFarm the planning department do not understand every aspect of planning, permitted developments or historical rights.
Look into certified locations, this is quite a good way to work the system, you do not need pp for a CL you require a licence provided by planning department. Only highways or English Heritage, or Enviroment agency can stand between you and a CL licence.
You will need a toilet/shower block, which is worth while applying for as a timber temporary building if they refuse go for a towable trailer :-) here comes your first static.
Once you have done a couple of years of tourers coming and going, (Open it for camping to others just so that people see vans coming and going) then drop in another static behind the toilet block, 4 years on you apply for a certificate of lawfulness.

If you want residential permission you need to register your driving licence, passport and bank details at that address, it needs to be done day 1 of the static going on site otherwise the 4 years become 10

 You can actually have tourers on without a toilet/shower block. Make it clear that there are no facilities, before you take the bookings! Most modern caravans have sufficient facilities on board to last a few days. That way you can get some money in before you have to start shelling out to improve things.
 Certificates of lawfulness, however, are 4 years for a building with foundations, but 10 years for a static/mobile home or anything else that can be readily removed from the site. 
Rules are made:
  for the guidance of wise men
  and the obedience of fools.

AndynJ

  • Joined Sep 2010
  • uk
  • Says it as it is. don't like it don't look
Re: Planning for a caravan - UPDATE - 'Storing' a caravan/vehicles.
« Reply #14 on: August 28, 2016, 10:44:24 am »
@BrimwoodFarm the planning department do not understand every aspect of planning, permitted developments or historical rights.
Look into certified locations, this is quite a good way to work the system, you do not need pp for a CL you require a licence provided by planning department. Only highways or English Heritage, or Enviroment agency can stand between you and a CL licence.
You will need a toilet/shower block, which is worth while applying for as a timber temporary building if they refuse go for a towable trailer :-) here comes your first static.
Once you have done a couple of years of tourers coming and going, (Open it for camping to others just so that people see vans coming and going) then drop in another static behind the toilet block, 4 years on you apply for a certificate of lawfulness.

If you want residential permission you need to register your driving licence, passport and bank details at that address, it needs to be done day 1 of the static going on site otherwise the 4 years become 10

 You can actually have tourers on without a toilet/shower block. Make it clear that there are no facilities, before you take the bookings! Most modern caravans have sufficient facilities on board to last a few days. That way you can get some money in before you have to start shelling out to improve things.
 Certificates of lawfulness, however, are 4 years for a building with foundations, but 10 years for a static/mobile home or anything else that can be readily removed from the site.

@landroverroy you are correct, however most councils will not issue a licence unless you have facilities, also you have to provide a elsan point, old style could be a soakaway, nowadats the EA won't allow that and it will need to be a sewage plant or mains drains, if one is going to this expense may as well provide a wc. Certificate of lawfulness, if only it was that clear cut, the wording is, 4 years for construction or building works, 10 years for change of use. Hardcore in a driveway is 4 years = no foundations, A steel shipping container, stood on blocks = 4 years, chicken sheds = 4 years, fencing = 4 years, I have just received conformation of all of the above, an extension made of timber construction and sat on a 4" concrete pad, accepted however Building control have stated it doesn't meet regs and has to be rebuilt "properly" with footings. (the key for this one was that we used the additional space as a bedroom. On Thursday I invited DC onto my land to advise me with regards rainwater and grey discharge, I took the opportunity to walk them round the entire site so that they could see there was nothing else to be concerned about. We are currently 4 years into a 10 year change of use for a wooden log cabin, we are also just starting another build 12mx6m timber shed which we will be going for 10 year residential on as well.

 

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