Author Topic: withdrawel period on wormers  (Read 11725 times)

Foobar

  • Joined Mar 2012
  • South Wales
Re: withdrawel period on wormers
« Reply #15 on: August 05, 2016, 11:04:10 am »
As for worming being a cheaper option than FECs - do the FEC yourself.   ;) .

Yeah, I kind of subscribe to "every man to his trade" in these important things. An influx of "enthusiastic amateurs" might not be the best thing in the long run.


I disagree, I think this is the only cost effective option in the long run.  Many farmers now do them themselves, and vets are advocating owners do them themselves.  You can always split your sample and send half off and do half and compare the results, to check that you are getting the same results.

pharnorth

  • Joined Nov 2013
  • Cambridgeshire
Re: withdrawel period on wormers
« Reply #16 on: August 05, 2016, 11:40:11 am »
I don't wish to be rude to anyone but these label claims of drugs are very highly researched to stringent protocols. Black Sheep indicates some of the complexity involved. After teams of scientists have spent many years doing all the studies, animal tissue, in vivo studies, often human too, the data goes to independent government  (currently EU) scientific audit and the label claims are agreed. Trying to reverse engineer this by reading a few papers is dangerous. I have spent over 30 years doing pharmaceutical R&D setting shelf life's and being involved in protocols like this and I will admit to taking the odd risk based decision but it is probably not wise to do so based on forum debate with the usual mixture of fact and guess work. Clearly it is not 'dangerous' the day before then end of the withdrawal period or 'safe' the day after but that, and the label claim are the only facts you have. The rest is guess work.




Fleecewife

  • Joined May 2010
  • South Lanarkshire
    • ScotHebs
Re: withdrawel period on wormers
« Reply #17 on: August 05, 2016, 11:45:58 am »
I don't wish to be rude to anyone but these label claims of drugs are very highly researched to stringent protocols. Black Sheep indicates some of the complexity involved. After teams of scientists have spent many years doing all the studies, animal tissue, in vivo studies, often human too, the data goes to independent government  (currently EU) scientific audit and the label claims are agreed. Trying to reverse engineer this by reading a few papers is dangerous. I have spent over 30 years doing pharmaceutical R&D setting shelf life's and being involved in protocols like this and I will admit to taking the odd risk based decision but it is probably not wise to do so based on forum debate with the usual mixture of fact and guess work. Clearly it is not 'dangerous' the day before then end of the withdrawal period or 'safe' the day after but that, and the label claim are the only facts you have. The rest is guess work.

That will be me, then. 

I don't take what you have said as rude at all.  The info you have given is just what I was fishing for - someone who knows how the research is carried out and can pass on knowledge based fact, as opposed to kneejerk opinion.

So thanks  :thumbsup:
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pharnorth

  • Joined Nov 2013
  • Cambridgeshire
Re: withdrawel period on wormers
« Reply #18 on: August 05, 2016, 11:53:06 am »
There was nothing wrong with what you wrote Fleecewife, it was well considered as always, and nothing wrong with checking out a few papers to get better informed either.  As you appreciated I was just heading off anyone inclined to take the 'bit of knowledge' route.  After years in labs and with science papers I really appreciate the hands on experience you and others add to the mix. 

Womble

  • Joined Mar 2009
  • Stirlingshire, Central Scotland
Re: withdrawel period on wormers
« Reply #19 on: August 05, 2016, 12:05:23 pm »
OK, so the real question is, if Trish invites you round for dinner in a few weeks time (let's ignore the legislative complications for a minute), are you going to tell her you're vegetarian or not?

Good debate folks - really interesting  :thumbsup:.
"All fungi are edible. Some fungi are only edible once." -Terry Pratchett

pharnorth

  • Joined Nov 2013
  • Cambridgeshire
Re: withdrawel period on wormers
« Reply #20 on: August 05, 2016, 12:17:10 pm »
Depends if she sprays her carrots just before she pulls them!

Womble

  • Joined Mar 2009
  • Stirlingshire, Central Scotland
Re: withdrawel period on wormers
« Reply #21 on: August 05, 2016, 12:47:27 pm »
...... or fertilized them with sheep poo!
"All fungi are edible. Some fungi are only edible once." -Terry Pratchett

Hellybee

  • Joined Feb 2010
    • www.blaengwawrponies.co.uk
Re: withdrawel period on wormers
« Reply #22 on: August 05, 2016, 01:20:27 pm »
You ve got them to this stage, I think waiting a little longer, adhering to withdrawels,is a small price to pay when it comes to your health  :hug:

waterbuffalofarmer

  • Joined Apr 2014
  • Mid Wales
  • Owner of 61 Mediterranean water buffaloes
Re: withdrawel period on wormers
« Reply #23 on: August 05, 2016, 03:00:18 pm »
alternatively if you like [member=36832]trish.farm[/member]  You could buy some ram lambs off me which are almost ready to be slaughtered and slaughter them instead?.... :innocent:
the most beautiful people we have known are those who have known defeat, known suffering, known struggle, known loss and have found their way out of the depths. These persons have an appreciation, a sensitivity and an understanding of life that fills them with compassion, gentleness, loving concern.

Foobar

  • Joined Mar 2012
  • South Wales
Re: withdrawel period on wormers
« Reply #24 on: August 05, 2016, 04:24:12 pm »
alternatively if you like [member=36832]trish.farm[/member]  You could buy some ram lambs off me which are almost ready to be slaughtered and slaughter them instead?.... :innocent:
...or me ;)

Black Sheep

  • Joined Sep 2015
  • Briercliffe
    • Monk Hall Farm
Re: withdrawel period on wormers
« Reply #25 on: August 06, 2016, 09:13:26 am »
That was a very informative reply Blacksheep  :thumbsup:

Thanks  :)

Quote
Another point which occurred to me is how were the withdrawal times actually calculated?  Did the research company use in vitro tissue culture or was the work done on live and dead whole animals?  Were sheep or cattle used to establish withdrawal times?  What was the size of the sample? Were measurements taken every day, or at larger intervals.  Was the work done on just one or two breeds of sheep?  I could imagine that metabolism would be quicker in a fast growing commercial lamb than in say a slow finishing Primitive.

My pharmaceutical expertise is much more at the other end of the process :) Pharnorth knows this far better and has added to the discussion already. But potentially any and all of what you say above. As an illustration though, metabolism isn't one fixed thing where all processes run at the same rate and are all faster/slower - it's massively complex and hard to predict in some cases. A slow finishing animal may well have a faster metabolism too - burning more energy and thus gaining less weight from the food consumed. But that doesn't necessarily mean it breaks down drugs faster.

We humans have a range of generic variations in things like liver enzyme activity - a good example is in relation to codeine. Some humans lack the enzyme necessary to break it down and since it is only really when our bodies break it down to morphine that it provides pain relief they find the drug completely ineffective. Most of us have the enzyme and it works but again a small proportion are what are termed ultra-fast metabolisers and they turn the codeine into morphine so quickly that the levels generated spike high and fast, leading to side effects and sometimes toxicity. I have no doubt that livestock will have these sorts of variations too, the effects of which could have been magnified in the purified breeds we have developed, or within some flocks - and there'll be no real way of knowing.

Quote
Is the manufacturer hedging their bets and going for the worst case scenario, or averaging out all the results?  How was the statistical analysis of the data carried out?

Hard to know without looking at the data in its entirety (which probably isn't available to us without detailed discussions with the manufacturer). However simply on the grounds of what is economically feasible I can't see that they will have performed formal testing in representative samples of every sheep breed, for example. So yes there will certainly be averaging and the addition of some degree of safety margin to allow for the variation described above.

Quote
I think what trish.farm is looking for is to be able to work out what would be the risk for her eating the meat and what might the consequences be if she goes ahead.

Yep, and we do estimations like this in humans regularly, for example trying to estimate what foetal exposure there may have been to a drug the mother used before she knew she was pregnant. But it is really difficult to do and impossible to be completely accurate about, even when the specialist knowledge is brought to bear.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2016, 11:41:20 am by Black Sheep »

harmony

  • Joined Feb 2012
Re: withdrawel period on wormers
« Reply #26 on: August 06, 2016, 10:25:24 am »
You will need to complete an FCI form for the abbatior, on which you will need to declare that none of the animals being slaughtered has had any treatments which are not withdrawal period expired.


Plus testing is carried out on meats to check for residues that shouldn't be there. The testing I believe is random but  someone I know did have their lambs tested.

pharnorth

  • Joined Nov 2013
  • Cambridgeshire
Re: withdrawel period on wormers
« Reply #27 on: August 06, 2016, 11:28:05 am »
I agree with all your points Black Sheep. The withdrawal dates are set on 'reasonable case' rather than 'worse case' and allow for as much as possible of the variation you mention. There is a dilemma in doing the studies that you need to reduce variation to understand in the first case how the drug is metabolised (how long it stays in the body and where) e.g. Using one or two breeds.  But ultimately need to extrapolate that data to allow for all sorts of variations you haven't tested. So at some point science and data revue ends, i.e there is not enough money to test every variation, and compliance starts I.e if it says 56 days that is what the law expects as it is the best researched guess at what is safe.  Consequently it is impossible to answer the original question scientifically, it can only be answered as a compliance question.

trish.farm

  • Joined Feb 2014
  • hampshire
Re: withdrawel period on wormers
« Reply #28 on: August 06, 2016, 06:00:44 pm »
thank you everyone, wasn't expecting quite the debate and such informative response, very grateful!  I will take the words of caution and wait till after the 56 days.  Ram lamb will be split up from the girlies in the flock and they will all enjoy a few more weeks of eating my grass!!  Many thanks for so many interesting points.

GrannyAching

  • Joined Apr 2015
  • Pembrokeshire
Re: withdrawel period on wormers
« Reply #29 on: August 07, 2016, 06:16:25 pm »
I don't even know if this is possible in sheep but you could ask your vet if it's possible to chemically castrate him for a few weeks over your holiday and then let him get that out of his system before slaughter - shouldn't take long.

I'm also a bit surprised you were told to fluke dose, were there any physical symptoms?

 

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