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Author Topic: Garden curtalige on smallholding/farm  (Read 5538 times)

Foobar

  • Joined Mar 2012
  • South Wales
Garden curtalige on smallholding/farm
« on: June 16, 2016, 11:38:23 am »
If you own a farm or smallholding, where the agri land is adjacent the house/garden, is it counted as one "holding" from a planning perspective, or does the house and garden still have its own curtalige?


I want to put up some sheds in various places (in garden and elsewhere) so need to know whether they come under the householders permissive development or under the "prior notification" thing (I'm over the 12 acres in total).

farmershort

  • Joined Nov 2010
Re: Garden curtalige on smallholding/farm
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2016, 11:45:37 am »
reading the 28 day notice stuff, I think it's just the land that's classed as agricultural. so I think it can include things like yards / hard standing - but not the house, nor the "amenity land". It does, however, also include non-adjacent rented land.

We're going through this soon too (well, maybe, seemy thread about estate agents...), but we read that book "field to farm" a few years ago and found it very useful for explaining the 28 day notice and PD stuff.

HTH

Adam

waterbuffalofarmer

  • Joined Apr 2014
  • Mid Wales
  • Owner of 61 Mediterranean water buffaloes
Re: Garden curtalige on smallholding/farm
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2016, 11:46:51 am »
This may be worth a read, not sure how accurate it is though
http://planninglawblog.blogspot.co.uk/2011/01/curtilage-confusion.html
the most beautiful people we have known are those who have known defeat, known suffering, known struggle, known loss and have found their way out of the depths. These persons have an appreciation, a sensitivity and an understanding of life that fills them with compassion, gentleness, loving concern.

Womble

  • Joined Mar 2009
  • Stirlingshire, Central Scotland
Re: Garden curtalige on smallholding/farm
« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2016, 11:47:50 am »
In our case, we've taken the land to be the bit that has a 'land parcel number' on the DEFRA maps, and the house to be the bit that doesn't. Not a definitive answer of course, but it could perhaps be a good starting point?
"All fungi are edible. Some fungi are only edible once." -Terry Pratchett

Foobar

  • Joined Mar 2012
  • South Wales
Re: Garden curtalige on smallholding/farm
« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2016, 12:04:49 pm »
Hmm all interesting thanks.  One shed will be going in the garden so I think that's ok, but the other will be going in the orchard which adjoins the garden (no gate though ... or if there was one previously its not there now nor any signs of one). The orchard doesn't have a defra field number on the land registry plan.  However, I'm inclined to do the notification thing on that one mainly cos it is over looked by my neighbours houses.  Not that I want to build anything that is bigger than what is allowed via the usual domestic permitted development, but best to err on the side of caution I guess :).

Foobar

  • Joined Mar 2012
  • South Wales
Re: Garden curtalige on smallholding/farm
« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2016, 12:27:37 pm »
Am I right in thinking there is no definitive map held which shows curtilage, so in theory it comes down to the planners interpretation of the rules?
« Last Edit: June 16, 2016, 12:43:20 pm by Foobar »

mart6

  • Joined Sep 2014
  • Notts / Yorkshire border
Re: Garden curtalige on smallholding/farm
« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2016, 02:20:27 pm »
Am I right in thinking there is no definitive map held which shows curtilage, so in theory it comes down to the planners interpretation of the rules?

Councils always have a opinion , but its not always right worth checking the planning appeals portal and you can see the planning inspectors decisions yourself

https://acp.planningportal.gov.uk/CaseSearch.aspx

Quite a few curtilage  ones when i last looked

When i put my enforcement appeal in the council had the stable block with small part of land around it as planning unit.
When inspector made his decision he included the 6+ acres in it as one planning unit as it was agricultural

This may give you a idea
 
« Last Edit: June 16, 2016, 02:28:36 pm by mart6 »

landroverroy

  • Joined Oct 2010
Re: Garden curtalige on smallholding/farm
« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2016, 04:55:04 pm »
The curtilage is the land round your house that you use for the enjoyment of your house. I would therefore take this to include your orchard, in particular as it does not have a field number, and also presumably you are just growing fruit for your own use (and enjoyment)

The curtilage of your house therefore has permitted development rights to erect buildings over a large proportion of it, for your own personal enjoyment and use. For this you don't need to run it past the planners.  Agricultural development rights, on land classed as agricultural does need official approval.
 I would have thought that unless your neighbours are particularly hostile they would not be reporting you for erecting a modest shed in your orchard. But I would put a connecting gate in anyway to avoid any argument about whether the land goes with your house or not.    (by the way - how do you access your orchard at present then, if no gate?) 
Rules are made:
  for the guidance of wise men
  and the obedience of fools.

Foobar

  • Joined Mar 2012
  • South Wales
Re: Garden curtalige on smallholding/farm
« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2016, 04:57:59 pm »
By no gate I meant there is no gate separating the orchard from the garden.  There is just a gateway in the hedge.

pharnorth

  • Joined Nov 2013
  • Cambridgeshire
Re: Garden curtalige on smallholding/farm
« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2017, 04:55:42 pm »
[member=24813]Foobar[/member] I was wondering what the outcome was to your deliberations as I am in pretty much the same position.

Foobar

  • Joined Mar 2012
  • South Wales
Re: Garden curtalige on smallholding/farm
« Reply #10 on: April 06, 2017, 05:05:30 pm »
I have put it off for now ... lol

pharnorth

  • Joined Nov 2013
  • Cambridgeshire
Re: Garden curtalige on smallholding/farm
« Reply #11 on: April 06, 2017, 06:48:31 pm »
  :thinking:  hmm. Sounds like I'll be telling you how I got on then. Talking to the planner next week to see what they say. I think a pre notification but really too small a project compared with their usual fodder so maybe they will just class it as permitted.........like yours it could be classed as curtalige, but it's probably agricultural

pgkevet

  • Joined Jul 2011
Re: Garden curtalige on smallholding/farm
« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2017, 06:48:40 am »
When I bought this place 6yrs ago i arranged a meet with local planning officer to discuss some of my plans. The house had  a small fenced area around it which he interpreted as the original curtilage. However my predecessors had landscaped some 2.5-3acres of new gardens refencing the closest field and planting tree and shrub islands and made ponds and planted a row of trees to shield themselves from a  right of access that runs along one edge to some fields across the stream from us (and a derelict cottage I own).

Planning officer pointed out that those trees were then at least 12years old and therefore under amnesty the new curtilage was the whole 3 acres gardens with all the rights to cover half of it in sheds etc if I so chose.

It's therefore a fluid definition that will depend on individual circumstances/changes.

original curtilage fences:


extended curtilage (both sides):



pharnorth

  • Joined Nov 2013
  • Cambridgeshire
Re: Garden curtalige on smallholding/farm
« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2017, 07:47:37 am »
Thank you. That could be helpful. I am after building a small,outbuilding 9 X 3m which I think would be permitted inside curtail age, may need pre notification if on agricultural and may need planning permission if on equestrian. It could be any of those 3 as is both between the barn and the field, and also between the stables and the ménage.   

stufe35

  • Joined Jan 2013
Re: Garden curtalige on smallholding/farm
« Reply #14 on: April 10, 2017, 08:25:02 am »
My advice is don't tell the planner your plans (and show your hand) or ask them for advice. 

a.  they are council workers and like many council workers (not all) are lazy and don't know there own job or rules.
b. the answer they give you will be what makes life easy for them(and maximises there income) ..not you.
c. they aint going to tell you the loop holes...or the things you could do slightly differently to change the situation.

I speak from bitter experience having been led a merry dance by the council planners.

My advice ..spend a couple of hundred quid and engage a planning consultant ...who makes his/her living by knowing planning laws and will be able to advise you in your best interests .

You may further engage them to submit the application on your behalf...planners run scared of planning consultants because they know they know the rules...your plans are more likely to succeed.


 

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