The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Smallholding => Buildings & planning => Topic started by: Foobar on June 16, 2016, 11:38:23 am
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If you own a farm or smallholding, where the agri land is adjacent the house/garden, is it counted as one "holding" from a planning perspective, or does the house and garden still have its own curtalige?
I want to put up some sheds in various places (in garden and elsewhere) so need to know whether they come under the householders permissive development or under the "prior notification" thing (I'm over the 12 acres in total).
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reading the 28 day notice stuff, I think it's just the land that's classed as agricultural. so I think it can include things like yards / hard standing - but not the house, nor the "amenity land". It does, however, also include non-adjacent rented land.
We're going through this soon too (well, maybe, seemy thread about estate agents...), but we read that book "field to farm" a few years ago and found it very useful for explaining the 28 day notice and PD stuff.
HTH
Adam
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This may be worth a read, not sure how accurate it is though
http://planninglawblog.blogspot.co.uk/2011/01/curtilage-confusion.html (http://planninglawblog.blogspot.co.uk/2011/01/curtilage-confusion.html)
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In our case, we've taken the land to be the bit that has a 'land parcel number' on the DEFRA maps, and the house to be the bit that doesn't. Not a definitive answer of course, but it could perhaps be a good starting point?
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Hmm all interesting thanks. One shed will be going in the garden so I think that's ok, but the other will be going in the orchard which adjoins the garden (no gate though ... or if there was one previously its not there now nor any signs of one). The orchard doesn't have a defra field number on the land registry plan. However, I'm inclined to do the notification thing on that one mainly cos it is over looked by my neighbours houses. Not that I want to build anything that is bigger than what is allowed via the usual domestic permitted development, but best to err on the side of caution I guess :).
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Am I right in thinking there is no definitive map held which shows curtilage, so in theory it comes down to the planners interpretation of the rules?
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Am I right in thinking there is no definitive map held which shows curtilage, so in theory it comes down to the planners interpretation of the rules?
Councils always have a opinion , but its not always right worth checking the planning appeals portal and you can see the planning inspectors decisions yourself
https://acp.planningportal.gov.uk/CaseSearch.aspx (https://acp.planningportal.gov.uk/CaseSearch.aspx)
Quite a few curtilage ones when i last looked
When i put my enforcement appeal in the council had the stable block with small part of land around it as planning unit.
When inspector made his decision he included the 6+ acres in it as one planning unit as it was agricultural
This may give you a idea
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The curtilage is the land round your house that you use for the enjoyment of your house. I would therefore take this to include your orchard, in particular as it does not have a field number, and also presumably you are just growing fruit for your own use (and enjoyment)
The curtilage of your house therefore has permitted development rights to erect buildings over a large proportion of it, for your own personal enjoyment and use. For this you don't need to run it past the planners. Agricultural development rights, on land classed as agricultural does need official approval.
I would have thought that unless your neighbours are particularly hostile they would not be reporting you for erecting a modest shed in your orchard. But I would put a connecting gate in anyway to avoid any argument about whether the land goes with your house or not. (by the way - how do you access your orchard at present then, if no gate?)
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By no gate I meant there is no gate separating the orchard from the garden. There is just a gateway in the hedge.
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[member=24813]Foobar[/member] I was wondering what the outcome was to your deliberations as I am in pretty much the same position.
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I have put it off for now ... lol
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:thinking: hmm. Sounds like I'll be telling you how I got on then. Talking to the planner next week to see what they say. I think a pre notification but really too small a project compared with their usual fodder so maybe they will just class it as permitted.........like yours it could be classed as curtalige, but it's probably agricultural
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When I bought this place 6yrs ago i arranged a meet with local planning officer to discuss some of my plans. The house had a small fenced area around it which he interpreted as the original curtilage. However my predecessors had landscaped some 2.5-3acres of new gardens refencing the closest field and planting tree and shrub islands and made ponds and planted a row of trees to shield themselves from a right of access that runs along one edge to some fields across the stream from us (and a derelict cottage I own).
Planning officer pointed out that those trees were then at least 12years old and therefore under amnesty the new curtilage was the whole 3 acres gardens with all the rights to cover half of it in sheds etc if I so chose.
It's therefore a fluid definition that will depend on individual circumstances/changes.
original curtilage fences:
(http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t361/Peter_Knapp/CAM00269_zpsbhpwp0dn.jpg)
extended curtilage (both sides):
(http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t361/Peter_Knapp/CAM00276_zpswc0sslse.jpg)
(http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t361/Peter_Knapp/CAM00256_zpsqfvxklcl.jpg)
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Thank you. That could be helpful. I am after building a small,outbuilding 9 X 3m which I think would be permitted inside curtail age, may need pre notification if on agricultural and may need planning permission if on equestrian. It could be any of those 3 as is both between the barn and the field, and also between the stables and the ménage.
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My advice is don't tell the planner your plans (and show your hand) or ask them for advice.
a. they are council workers and like many council workers (not all) are lazy and don't know there own job or rules.
b. the answer they give you will be what makes life easy for them(and maximises there income) ..not you.
c. they aint going to tell you the loop holes...or the things you could do slightly differently to change the situation.
I speak from bitter experience having been led a merry dance by the council planners.
My advice ..spend a couple of hundred quid and engage a planning consultant ...who makes his/her living by knowing planning laws and will be able to advise you in your best interests .
You may further engage them to submit the application on your behalf...planners run scared of planning consultants because they know they know the rules...your plans are more likely to succeed.
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I disagree.
I'm also someone who once stormed into a planning department (havng lost my temper over multiple planning applications for nothng to do with smallholdings) and shouted out in a loud voice .. "Just tell me who the f*** to bribe!" It's not the way....
When i was buying this place and got in touch with local planning I was very diplomatic and laid out what i was trying to achieve and whether it was possible to discuss my ideas with a planning officer. The fellow that I ended up chatting to came out to see the farm and we had a long, long chat about various things. He turned out to be a local guy and mostly concerned with what he considered was good for the area. Along with our discussion he volunteered the fact that he also worked in his spare time as a planning consultant and thought it was daft that he got so much work that way when all folk really had to do was to ring up and ask.
Now it's not actually their job to tell you what you can/ cannot do. It's their job to tell you whether what you propose is allowable under the rules. So you need to be friendly and diplomatic if you're trying to get help in finding a way to achieve your end result. If they disagree or claim it's not allowable and don't choose to help then you can always use a planning consultant afterwards - but why pay for the sake of it?
In the case above where i lost my cool I did finally get consent for the expansions of my business only through the services of my brother in law (who turned put to be a much higher powered road planner than I was aware of) who took over the situation, arranged a meeting wth the planners.. told me I could come along but keep my gob shut.... and had such a diplomatic discussion with the guys that i learned a lot about handling officials. And he suggested compromises that kept everyone happy. I've recently had to deal with my mother's estate and the complications there have meant speaking to both probate and land registry and again both have been very helpful and suprisingly pleasant to chat with - by being polite, calm and explaining things. Folk like to be asked if they can help.
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Well your replies both made me smile and I really appreciate them because you are both absolutely correct that the wrong approach to the wrong people can take a lot of sorting. I have had a good read of all the planning guidance and there is enough ambiguity that my approach will be to say that I am looking for advice on the simplest way through and it seems to be..... To [member=16228]pgkevet[/member] points, my learning on handling officials is to suggest a solution rather than ask an entirely open question because in some cases they find it very hard to back track from the first thing they think off, which is often not the best or easiest answer. [member=27229]stufe35[/member] this is a pretty small project so not worth spending on a consultant and fees for them to submit and not the end of the world if they simply say no.