[waterbuffalofarmer]

I know a lot of farmers use the Lleyn to cross with ewes for commercial type lambs, I have seen Lleyn on Beltex and texel and welsh, the latter being the nicest. However I am thinking of, in the future, crossing some of the Lleyn ewes with something to sell lambs at mart quicker and for more, or for a much meatier carcass, commercial only and keeping my Lleyns for good genetics, showing and selling at sales (hoping). I have considered hill charmoise, but again would be rather an expensive option. I am ideally looking for something which the heads are not too big but would provide a good carcass. Is there such a thing? Suggestions please?

[farmershort]

I know a lot of farmers use the Lleyn to cross with ewes for commercial type lambs, I have seen Lleyn on Beltex and texel and welsh, the latter being the nicest. However I am thinking of, in the future, crossing some of the Lleyn ewes with something to sell lambs at mart quicker and for more, or for a much meatier carcass, commercial only and keeping my Lleyns for good genetics, showing and selling at sales (hoping). I have considered hill charmoise, but again would be rather an expensive option. I am ideally looking for something which the heads are not too big but would provide a good carcass. Is there such a thing? Suggestions please?

Charollais are a popular terminal sire in your neck of the woods, and would add some height to the lleyns as well as muscle. They're smaller headed proportionally than something like a texel.

A good native option might be a Suffolk.

Have you had any pure lleyns graded?

I know a good few brecknock hill Cheviot farmers who happily use texel, Charollais, and Suffolk to get the must-have carcass grading (E3L was it?).

[waterbuffalofarmer]

Not sure. No not yet I haven't started grading them yet but plan to next year, hopefully, when the genetics are even better, as this rams ewe lambs should be breeding by then.

[Hellybee]

I'm of the same mind as you, would like to cross half our ewes with a meatier sire.   I too was thinking charmoise, but not one to want the Charollais.  Nor suffolk, never thought I'd say it but am swaying more toward s the texel, providing he s a slightly Rangier, with well appointed balanced head and not too thick theough the neck, but like how I like my section A s to be honest, well proportioned through the eyes and length of muzzle and with a decent length of rein  lols x

[silkwoodzwartbles]

My OH would be very disappointed if I didn't recommend the Berrichon. Easy lambers, quick growing, and great carcasses.

http://www.berrichonsociety.com/

And they're pretty!

[waterbuffalofarmer]

I love berrichons, how much would it be for a ram on average? I am torn between hill charmoise and berrichon.

[silkwoodzwartbles]

About £400 to buy one, or if you have a local non-MV breeder, you should be able to rent one for about £60.

[SallyintNorth]

We ran a Charollais tup - and then his grandson - through our flock three or four times, retaining the ewe lambs and putting them to the Dutch Texel.  The improvement in our conformation grades was astounding.

All the Charollais cross lambs were easy lambing, lively at birth, straight round to the milk bar.  Whenever we weighed two lambs that looked similar weights, one a Charollais and one a Texel, the Charollais weighed 2 or 3 kilos more.  Really solid.

They didn't need cake to finish, either - they'd finish well on grass, even up here.

It'd put some shape on the Lleyns' backends and improve your fat lambs' finish rates, weights and conformation.

[firther]

We ran a Charollais tup - and then his grandson - through our flock three or four times, retaining the ewe lambs and putting them to the Dutch Texel.  The improvement in our conformation grades was astounding.

All the Charollais cross lambs were easy lambing, lively at birth, straight round to the milk bar.  Whenever we weighed two lambs that looked similar weights, one a Charollais and one a Texel, the Charollais weighed 2 or 3 kilos more.  Really solid.

They didn't need cake to finish, either - they'd finish well on grass, even up here.

It'd put some shape on the Lleyns' backends and improve your fat lambs' finish rates, weights and conformation.

like sound of that sally, might try a charollais, we farm at 1100 to 1200 feet and some one told me not to keep retained gimmers off a charollais, but I know you're farming at a high level.

what are lambs like off a dutch texel, compared to a uk one?

[SallyintNorth]

We're not as hign as you, but much further north, so probably comparable?

We were told to select a Charollais tup with plenty of wool on his head, then he'd give lambs with more wool than a smooth-headed tup.  Seemed to work for us.

We bred one Charollais cross ewe back to the Charollais, just to see - cracking lambs, but too bare for up here.  But the first crosses, and their daughters from the Dutch Texel, were fine.  Finer-skinned than our other sheep, for sure, but sufficiently covered to cope with our weather.

We lamb outdoors, and the Charollais lambs, and lambs from the Charollais cross ewes, do have less fluff on them at birth than the Texels.  But this means they squirt out more easily, are very lively on landing, and get straight round to the milk bar for that crucial warming first feed.  Whereas some of the Texels can be a bit more dopey, possibly partly due to taking longer to get born, so take longer to get that first feed.  In really cold wet weather, we'd bring in any newborns for a warm dry first night, and in anything other than horrid weather, the Charollais lambs are fine.  We do jacket any fine-skinned lambs if cold wet weather is expected.

The Dutch Texel, when first (re)imported, was finer fleeced, finer boned, smaller headed, and narrower shouldered than the by then prevalent anglicised Texel.  Ours gave smaller lambs at birth but which grew on really well, which we think is ideal! 

However, our second DT tup was quite a bit bulkier, and his fleece rather less fine, and he was the best we could find.  His lambs were great though, and again were born small but grew really well, finishing with top grades for conformation. 

We've not bought a third  DT tup, as they now seem to have been bred up to be as massive as the regular Texel

[firther]

yes i'd have thought comparable, like you say you're further north. i'm guessing like us you get late springs and get envious when people are putting up pics up of mowing in may lol.

thanks for advice there, I might just try a charollais on a few of my home bred gimmers, they should be hardy souls so hopefully be a good match.
 I remember my dad having a charollais a few years back and like you say we had some cracking lambs. they were some charollais gimmers came at same time(5 I think) and we struggled with them, but on mule crosses lambs were great, quick growing too.

might leave dutch texel then if there just same, that's problem with texels they are trying to breed bigger boned/headed sheep every season. I do use my own texel tups but going to bring a new 1 in this year for some fresh lines this year.

[Marches Farmer]

I have one pedigree shearling Southdown ram still available for hire this year.  You could try before you buy!  Any Down type breed should improve carcase quality without giving lambing difficulties.  The Southdown is growing in popularity for use on ewe lambs because of this. It's one of the breeds (along with the Norfolk Horn) that created the Suffolk and shares with the Charollais an injection of Merino blood around the time of Louis XV, which is why the fleece quality is so good.

[Ideation]

Charmoise are great, also like NZ suftex, NZ Suffolk, had some good Charolais, beltex and Texels but need the right type as with any ram.
Wouldn't keep Charolais x ewes if you paid me!

[nutterly_uts]

I have one pedigree shearling Southdown ram still available for hire this year.  You could try before you buy!  Any Down type breed should improve carcase quality without giving lambing difficulties.  The Southdown is growing in popularity for use on ewe lambs because of this. It's one of the breeds (along with the Norfolk Horn) that created the Suffolk and shares with the Charollais an injection of Merino blood around the time of Louis XV, which is why the fleece quality is so good.

My friend has a flock of hotchpotch crosses (some texel cross ewes but mainly just bitsas based around the suffolk type) who went to a M+S tup (suffolk type - not sure if pure) and then the resulting crosses and original ewes to a southdown and had really really nice lambs - so much so that far as I know, she was sticking to southdowns for her flock. She also has a few southdown ladies for a small pure flock but imho they are annoying when pure - far too dopey and flighty!

[Marches Farmer]

We had one bloodline where the first-time Mamas didn't mother up straight away, so we culled it out.  They're very calm, due to centuries of being with their shepherd all day, when they were grazed on the hilltops and brought down to fertilise the in-bye land overnight.  If you have high quality SD's you need to trim around their eyes several times a year or they can become wool blind, which can lead to them being startled when things suddenly hove into view, but we've never had one that had a temperament I could describe as "flighty".