[smee2012]

Morning all 

I took delivery of our very first pair of pigs yesterday (Saddleback/Pietrain crosses, in case you're interested!), having only kept sheep previously. I've registered their arrival with Animal Health but I can't seem to find out where I get a holding register from? I was sent a sheep one when I registered our holding/sheep but Animal Health says it wasn't from them and I can't remember where I would have got it from. All the Defra information seems to be several years old and I'm floundering a bit!

[Dan]

You need to register them with APHA if you're in England or Wales:

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/pig-keepers-register-your-holding-and-animals

They'll issue a herd number.

HTH.

[smee2012]

Yes, I've already done that (see my original post). I was asking about the physical holding register, like the one I have for my sheep. A book for recording movements on/off my property, births, deaths etc etc. All Defra says on the matter is that I should have a holding register for the pigs, but not where I can actually get one!

[shygirl]

do you mean herd number? as opposed to flock number.
your holding number shouldn't change between species.

[clydesdaleclopper]

I never got a holding register for my pigs either, unlike the sheep. Don't know why.

[jward]

I never got one for my pigs or my sheep.  I printed one off the defra site for my sheep, but couldn't find anything for pigs but as per their site the "legal requirement" for pigs is record the date of movement, number of pigs moved, identification mark, holding address and number moved from and to - so I just have it set out in columns in an A4 book, but I also record births, deaths and number of pigs on holding in it too.  I imagine a spreadsheet would do the job to and print if they ever wanted to see it?

[mowhaugh]

I just use an excel spreadsheet.

[Marches Farmer]

I keep a handwritten record on ruled A4 paper.  I believe Fearing do a printed one.

[oaklandspigs]

When government was flush with money, then all sorts of bodies used to produce registers - typically with far more columns than legally required !  But with cutbacks these stopped.  Some trading standards probably still have stuff in a cupboard, but since they were released from having to keep the government computers updated, they have largely forgotten about pigs.

When electronic movements came in, local government was told that e-aml was sufficient and we didn't need to keep paper records anymore.  But unfortunately most local councils didn't get the message, and the website link I had to the missive disappeared in some website re-org, so there is no officialdom to quote.  However technically it satisfies the legal requirement.  However we suggest that you still keep a 'book'

It can be in any form, and kept on computer as long as you can show them a printed copy within a reasonable period of them arriving - ie minutes.  They will not look at your computer screen, they want written/printed.

The actual legislation is The Pigs (Records, Identification and Movement) Order 2011 2011 part 2 section 5 which states :

5.—(1) Within 36 hours of the movement of a pig on or off a holding the keeper must complete the form in the Schedule.
(2) Once a year a keeper must record the maximum number of pigs normally on the holding and the actual number of pigs on the holding at that date.
(3) The keeper must keep these records for at least 3 years.

The 'form' in the schedule says

Name and address of the person keeping the record

Date of movement
The identification number (1)or temporary mark
Number of pigs
Holding from which moved
Holding to which moved

and that's it

[oaklandspigs]

PS - when the law was last reviewed, I challenged why 5(2) existed, where it says

(2) Once a year a keeper must record the maximum number of pigs normally on the holding and the actual number of pigs on the holding at that date


First I asked what 'the maximum number of pigs normally on the holding' meant - you can't have a 'maximum...normally' the maximum is by definition abnormal as it's the highest !

Secondly I asked them what use this data could be put to - what possible use is knowing what the largest number is, particularly as every farm can choose a different date, so collating this data gives you nothing.

They hummed and delayed, and eventually came back and said that they wouldn't take it out of the legislation, as they didn't know why it was in there, and until they knew the original purpose they couldn't remove it just in case !

Love government !

[pharnorth]

The guidance says you have to have a register but it can be electronic so an excel spreadsheet will do it.  I print mine off from time to time but you can show and inspector the eclectronic one if you see fit.

[oaklandspigs]

but you can show and inspector the eclectronic one if you see fit.

We have had several reports of TS/APHA refusing to look at computer screens, so whilst you could argue it in a court of law (as you could that e-aml does the function) , I recommend that you have a printed one or the capability to print one pronto 

[pharnorth]

but you can show and inspector the eclectronic one if you see fit.

We have had several reports of TS/APHA refusing to look at computer screens, so whilst you could argue it in a court of law (as you could that e-aml does the function) , I recommend that you have a printed one or the capability to print one pronto 

You may well be right but in that case it is the inspectors failing to inspect not us failing to be inspected. Since they are public servants then I would hope someone asks them why they are failing to do their job.  Not me though ha ha.

[smee2012]

OK, thanks for the replies. I might just photocopy the relevant pages from my sheep register, cross out the sheep bit and put pig instead!  If it says what it needs to, they can hardly argue!

I've already got an animal medicine logbook too, I'm presuming I can use the same one as the sheep, provided that it has the correct tag numbers etc. I can't imagine I'm going to be medicating my pigs in the short time I have them, but I guess you never know!!

[oaklandspigs]

You may well be right but in that case it is the inspectors failing to inspect not us failing to be inspected. Since they are public servants then I would hope someone asks them why they are failing to do their job.  Not me though ha ha.

If only it were that easy...been there played that game....

If you receive BPS (eu subsidy) then challenging any inspector involves a minimum 7 months delay in your receiving payments whilst they 'investigate', and mega form filling.

If you don't receive eu payments, then they (TS/APHA) will still say that you failed whilst they 'investigate' , and since they initially found an issue, you get on the 'non-compliance' list, which means you receive more inspections on other matters - it's called 'risk-based inspections' - those that don't comply in one area are likely not to comply in another so get more inspections! When you do finally get a clearance you are not likely to come off the other list, so continue to receive more frequent inspections. 

So authority has the control either way.