[Kimbo]

Its just a wild guess here but I think Womble loves his Zwartbles 

[AilsavanRooyen]

Harmony - sorry I may have confused again, we don't have the farm shop yet. It is only in planning phase at the moment but we hope to have it up and running in 2 or 3 years time for once the kids start school and we have established our red deer herds (another story but that is to be our main focus)  Whether or not we can offer year round lamb/hogget/mutton sales remains to be seen but I believe to some extent one can play around with breed of tup to extend breeding season, depending of course on ewe breed and growing conditions. I cannot see us working an intensive system so it is much more likely we will offer the meat according to the season, or of course frozen. We will also have to determine what sells best, but for that we will have to open first. We won't have so many sheep that a change of mind regarding breed should break the bank, but it would be nice to get it mostly right. And then of course to do right by them, and know how to select well will play a huge part in our success.

I agree about seasonal lamb/hogget, that's what I do with my sheep. I am intrigued to hear abut your red deer, how are you going to have them killed for meat? By bullet or on farm abattoir?

Hi again! At this stage we are thinking of doing both - field culling and abattoir. I like the idea of field culling most, primarily for welfare but also for financial reasons, so this is what we will do for the ones for the shop. Field culling works best for taking off in small numbers, which is what will suit the shop best anyway, and the surplus we will sell to the new deer abattoir in Fife, only an hour and a bit away, who need supporting and offer a good price.

[AilsavanRooyen]

If you want year-round fresh sheep meat for your shop you have three choices that I can think of.

• A slow-maturing animal (eg., most of the primitives) which you can slaughter at any stage once they're ready
• A non-seasonal breeder such as the Dorset Horn / Poll Dorset.  These would do well on the ground you describe, I think, and do taste good.  I helped for a while on a farm which had two flocks of Dorsets, one lambing in spring, the other in autumn, and so they could offer fresh lamb year round.  You can use the same tup on both flocks, I think, but in this system each ewe only lambs once a year.
• Have whichever sheep turn you on, and buy in store lambs to fill in the gaps in your own production calender

On primitives or not, the only thing that has occurred to me is that some primitives have meat that's more akin to venison than lamb, on terms of flavour and leanness.  If you're selling venison anyway, then that may be either a good thing or not so good!

The Dorset Horn / Poll Dorset is a rare breed, though not primitive, so you would still have that angle.  And nice fleeces are good to spin 

Sallyintnorth, great points - hadn't even crossed my mind about the venison clash potential! I'll try not to worry about that, perhaps it is a good thing, mmm. Oh so much to think about!

[SallyintNorth]

The only breed thats been mentioned which is really a credible commercial maternal breed is the lleyn.

My first thought, reading AilsavanRooyen's opening post, before anyone else had posted, was that Lleyn fit the bill perfectly!

There does seem to be a market for Lleyn gimmers, too, which would be another string to their bow.

However, Ailsa seems keen to support rare breeds, to have some sheep that are of interest to visitors and a draw to the shop and to have something that tastes a bit different.  Which is not to say Lleyn don't taste good, they do, but not very different.  And as has been said, to most people they just look like any other commercial white sheep.  Although the breed standard does say that the ewes' faces should be pretty!   

The only breed thats been mentioned which is really a credible commercial maternal breed is the lleyn. The rest are mostly for novelty.

Ailsa did say in her opening post that she would like sheep with some novelty value, as part of being a draw to get visitors to the shop.

[SallyintNorth]

Ailsa you talked about breeding out of season by choosing the right tup.  Actually you need the ewes to be non-seasonal or extended-season breeders too; the ewe has to be cycling in order to attract and accept the tup.

Reading the Dorset Horn & Poll Dorset Sheep Breeders' Association material, they do say that you can use the Dorset to get three crops in two years, which would boost production, and also that you can start the ewes lambing at 15-18 months, rather than having to wait for them to be two years old as you would in other breeds.  (Assuming not tupping as lambs.)

[SallyintNorth]

On slaughter and butchering costs being the same, whatever the size of animal... Slaughter is, yes, and will cost a couple of quid more for an over-12 months animal too, so the slower-maturing type will incur this charge. 

Butchering - not necessarily.  If you were going to cut the carcase into as many pieces, then yes of course, but you tend to make less cuts from the smaller sheep.  For instance, whole legs rather than two half-legs (or two half-legs rather than a shank and two leg joints.)  Barnsley (double) chops rather than singles, rack of lamb rather than cutlets, etc.

A top conformation commercial lamb, grading E2, is the quickest and easiest for the butcher.  No waste, plump muscle, easy peasy.  Once you come away from commercial types, you'll have poor conformation to correct and possibly more fat to trim, all of which adds to the work for the butcher.

If I was going to be having the quantities butchered that you will be, I would discuss with the butcher how best to approach the carcase of your chosen sheep, given its strengths and weaknesses, and whatever you know about the requirements of your customers - and agree a rate for butchering that is fair to both parties.

And, in my opinion, superb tasting lamb / hogget / mutton will get your customers coming back over and over again, and getting their friends to come too.   That's worth considerably more to you than saving a few pence per kilo on butchering charges.

[SallyintNorth]

I just wonder if I might be able to find some local sheep hand to turn to as that would be a big help (assuming they were a good shepherd!) Perhaps I put that call out on another thread before long!

Also, you could see if you can get some volunteering on a local sheep farm - you'll learn a lot that way, and build a relationship with the farmer which hopefully would be mutually beneficial.

Don't ask to 'come and help for a couple of days to learn about sheep' - that's all one way.  Instead, if you have the time, ask if you could help whenever they have a job on, to learn enough that you can be genuinely useful as well as benefitting from the experience yourself

[BenBhoy]

The only breed thats been mentioned which is really a credible commercial maternal breed is the lleyn.

My first thought, reading AilsavanRooyen's opening post, before anyone else had posted, was that Lleyn fit the bill perfectly!

There does seem to be a market for Lleyn gimmers, too, which would be another string to their bow.

However, Ailsa seems keen to support rare breeds, to have some sheep that are of interest to visitors and a draw to the shop and to have something that tastes a bit different.  Which is not to say Lleyn don't taste good, they do, but not very different.  And as has been said, to most people they just look like any other commercial white sheep.  Although the breed standard does say that the ewes' faces should be pretty!   

The only breed thats been mentioned which is really a credible commercial maternal breed is the lleyn. The rest are mostly for novelty.

Ailsa did say in her opening post that she would like sheep with some novelty value, as part of being a draw to get visitors to the shop.

And indeed they are the prettiest sheep (said like a true Welshman!)

[Keepers]

Sorry I dont have a breed suggestion as of such

But I find it funny that people assume the breed has to be different to be a novelty to the public

Most of the time for people not "farm savvy" a sheep IS a novelty

A farm 15 mins from me runs huge huge lambing open days, he is very successful, he runs all lleyns, he was once asked why he didnt have some "different" looking sheep for people

The reply was simple

Lleyns look like "boring white sheep", however if you asked any child in the country or adult even to draw a sheep that is what they would draw, and that is what a sheep would be to them, white and woolly, they can relate to that
If the man had a pen on lambs and some were black, some brown and some white, the kids would always go for the white ones because that was what "lambs" looked like, we also found the same with chicks
We used to take chicks to schools for children to see/feel (for free, purely for the enjoyment) they all wanted the yellow chick because thats what chicks were
Some of the brown or multi coloured chicks didnt even get touched as the children didnt know what they were!

I find it very interesting, how I hear over and over how the lleyn is a "boring" looking sheep, but actually it is a "Sheep" looking sheep

My advice would be to look what is in your area, if you want rare then most breeds are rare for some reason or another, so will have downsides, small carcass, horns, wirey wool, etc but should taste good
IMO any breed that is naturally reared on grass and given as little inputs as possible is good tasting 

I didnt get on with zwartbles and I am low land, they werent tough enough, found the feet prone to scald and the ewes really do need feeding, whether that's very very good grass or feed and the lambs grew legs for a long while before growing carcass, and in a market that eats and pays for the carcass.. they just didnt fit for me

A sheep that looks pretty and has a superb shape and is run commercially is the blue texel?
Apart from that I think every breed I could suggest wouldnt be classed as novelty/pretty 

Good luck with your search! 

[Castle Farm]

Lleyns.

[Porterlauren]

Out of interest why do folk think that 'rare' or 'minority' breed sheep taste better than other breeds? Is that based upon in depth, fairly run taste tests. . . . . or just an unsupported statement?

[Remy]

I don't know if it's of any help to you at all, but I started in sheep breeding by accident really, about 8 years ago.  I was given six orphan lambs, four of whom were nice ewes (1 Suffolk x and 3 mules).  I only meant to keep them for grass cutting but was persuaded by an ex-sheep farmer to get a ram and breed.  Along came a Ryeland tup and he produced some very nice lambs.


These ended up going to market and I decided to get a few more breeding ewes, and got 5 Charollais.  Again the Ryeland x Ch produced some nice fat lambs.


I then got a bit fed up of seeing an all-white flock so decided I'd add a bit of colour, and got some Gotlands and Zwartbles, and a Herdwick!  I also got Gotland and Zwartbles rams and bred some purebreds for a time, but decided I'd be better off concentrating on commercials for market so sold the rams.  In the meantime I had some very interesting crosses!  What I've enjoyed is experimenting with crossing different sheep, but of course the resulting lambs are not going to be good for market -  however I sold all of them quite easily to smallholders.  The Zwartbles x lambs were slower maturing and were sold as stores.


Sadly I lost my Ryeland tup and bought in another.  I then decided to bring in yet another tup who was a Meatlinc x - he produced some very consistent and interesting lambs, in particular the Zwartbles ewes were crossed to him and the lambs are fabulous.  Unfortunately I found him dead after a heavy head butting session with my Ryeland! 


I've now got a couple more tups who I am am bringing on and will be experiencing further with - these are a Texel x Lleyn and Texel x Suffolk, both really good specimens but it remains to be seen what lambs they produce.  I need to have two tups so will keep the ones who produce the best lambs.


If you are wanting to produce consistent market type lambs then you will need to get breeds which will produce that - my Ryeland tups crossed with my commercial ewes have fitted the bill.  However Ryelands do produce a lot of fleece!  Something to think about as flystrike can be a problem. 


As to taste - I've never actually tried any of mine but really should!  I'm pretty sure that most homebred lamb will taste nice  .


Sorry about the rambling post but really what I'm saying is that you need to decide what exactly you are after in your 'dream sheep', and having quite a few acres means that you can up to a point experiment.  Gotlands are the most gorgeous friendly sheep but don't produce market lambs.  Zwartbles are also friendly in the main.  Herdwicks are escape artists.  If you are wanting meat for your own shop then it probably doesn't really matter what breed you go for - get ones you like!

[SallyintNorth]

Out of interest why do folk think that 'rare' or 'minority' breed sheep taste better than other breeds? Is that based upon in depth, fairly run taste tests. . . . . or just an unsupported statement?

In my case it's from having eaten a few different types of sheep.

Texel - tender, tasteless
Charollais - tender, sweet, succulent

2nd-summer Swaledale off moorland - cooks like spring lamb, tastes like lamb ought to taste.  My favourite non-primitive thus far.  (But haven't tried Herdwick.)

Old NoE Mule - you'll never make lasagne or moussaka with any other mince again.  (Though you have to build in time to let it cool and the bright orange fat run off, that is if you have guests who may not like a pool of orange grease on their plates!)

3-summer Castlemilk Moorit wether - really is gamey, somewhere between mutton and venison in flavour.  Many people who "don't like lamb" really like this meat.  As do people who don't like venison .

3 yr old Shetland ewe - full of flavour, more flavour than Swaledale wether, but needs the long slow cook, even after hanging for more than a week before butchering.

22 month Shetland x Manx (with a bit of other things - Charollais, Beltex, Swaledale & BFL - in there) - just the most wonderful tasting roast I have ever had.  And so tender - and not fatty - too.

The research continues .  I am enjoying it very much 

[Kimbo]

re taste I can only tell you about pure Texel and pure Ryeland, both very locally grown.
 I agree about Texel.... meaty, tender but not much taste. The Ryeland ( full hogget brother to some of our store lambs) was tender, incredibly tasty and very lean.
Hence we opted to go with Ryelands as we are raising for the table. We have 8 ram lambs which are going to the butcher between end of Sept and end of January. They are already sold and I could have sold as many again.

[Porterlauren]

I think that there is probably as much (or more) variation within breeds as between them.

Ive killed and eaten a fair range of different breeds of sheep / lamb. Apart from the proper wee primitive things, which taste more like venison, I think that most lamb, when reared on a grass based diet for the same kind of length of time, tastes very very similar.

The change comes probably from the amount of fat laid down etc, and the length of time from birth to slaughter.

Although slow matured lamb / hogged tastes great. . . . . . days to slaughter is the biggest profit factor, way ahead of carcass conformation etc.

So i'll take a fast growing lamb over most other things!