[Ideation]

Its a fascinating debate I think.

One thing though - people get offended very quickly when someone says negative things about smallholders, and yet how many times on here have we heard negative things said about large scale or commercial farmers. The suggestion is often that smallholders know bugger all and are just playing at it, and that large scale commercial farmers do not care about their stock, the land etc etc. Niether assertion is totally accurate,. It may be in some cases, but nothing is quite so black and white.

Mind you, I HAVE found that when something becomes a 'fashion' it can create some problems. I.E the value of grazing land in an area gets skewed when some people offer daft rents. . . . but that can take the form of a smallholder offering £150 an acre for 4 acres to graze their few sheep, to the large scale dairy farmer offering the same silly money because he is propped up by the subs.

As for knowledge and experiance . . . . ive met plenty of farmers who have been farming for years and in fact generations. . . . and who would be buggered if the subs were pulled and they hadnt inherited the family farm! Their system is outdated, inefficient and close minded.

Equally I do laugh a little at the courses being run to educate people on farming / small holding / livestock. . . . by people who have had 20 chickens, 4 pigs and 10 sheep for 2 years.

But as has been said, you need to worry less about what other folk are doing and just concentrate upon your own affairs. I own a grand total of 3.5 acres. . . . and run around 200 ewes, going up by another 100 this year, and aiming to be running something like 600 in the next three years and hopefully 1000 in the next five years. Quite possibly that makes me a farmer? Except I dont live on a farm, I dont own a tractor, and I have another job.

[Thyme]

Equally I do laugh a little at the courses being run to educate people on farming / small holding / livestock. . . . by people who have had 20 chickens, 4 pigs and 10 sheep for 2 years.

Thing is, those courses are better run by people like that, in my opinion.  Because if you're looking to start smallholding, it helps a lot to see a place that is like what you might aim for a couple of years in, and to talk with people who remember being where you are and are not so far ahead of you.  And they know what you need to know first, because they've been in your shoes not too long ago.  The far more experienced large farmer probably doesn't want to spend the time running a course like that, and also they may have learned very differently (ag school, working on large farms, etc) and not necessarily have the temperament for teaching beginning smallholders.

[Backinwellies]

Thing is, those courses are better run by people like that, in my opinion.  Because if you're looking to start smallholding, it helps a lot to see a place that is like what you might aim for a couple of years in, and to talk with people who remember being where you are and are not so far ahead of you.  And they know what you need to know first, because they've been in your shoes not too long ago.  The far more experienced large farmer probably doesn't want to spend the time running a course like that, and also they may have learned very differently (ag school, working on large farms, etc) and not necessarily have the temperament for teaching beginning smallholders.

Well I'll offer anyone a course (with accommodation) ... I taught agriculture for 21 years  but have only been smallholding for 2.5.   I am still learning!  but have enough experience to teach practical skills properly and with plenty of background knowledge too ........  any takers??

[Womble]

Only if you promise not to make me faint or lose my lunch, like I very nearly did on the lambing course! 

[Porterlauren]

Thyme - Have you ever heard the expression "the blind leading the blind".

I was not suggesting that a smallholder should go and do an ag course, or that large scale commercial farmers should be teaching the small holding courses.

However, if I am going to learn or study something, I like to learn from someone with experience, proper time served experience. It's all very well having 'had a go'. . . . and even in your first steps you will learn valuable information that can be passed on to others. . . . every day is a school day.

However, if you went to do a lambing course, and it turned out that the person 'teaching' it, had a total of ten sheep, which they had lambed twice. . . . . with a total one one lamb to be pulled,with just a leg back. Never dealt with twin lamb disease, or a prolapse, never had to foster a lamb etc etc etc. Would you feel that you were really getting taught by the voice of experience.

There are folk teaching small holding courses, that are small holders, that remember exactly what it was like to start out, and run exactly what most are striving for, but have been doing it for enough years to have a wealth of genuine, practical knowledge, that can be invaluable to someone starting out.

We have discussed doing courses here. I vetoed the idea, as I only feel I know enough about sheep to teach someone. Despite having pigs, poultry and a veg plot for years on and off (more on than off) I really don't feel I have the depth of knowledge to teach some one and feel that I am genuinely imparting valuable experience and knowledge to them.

On a separate note - r.e the smallholding vs farm debate. I think it is important to take lessons from both worlds if you want to be successful. I.e I can tell you the history of every ewe here, from looking at her. That's probably seen as a 'smallholding' mentality. But I can also tell you exactly how much profit (or not) that ewe has produced (or that acre of grazing), which is probably more in line with a commercial farm. Both are useful!

[SallyintNorth]

I.e I can tell you the history of every ewe here, from looking at her. That's probably seen as a 'smallholding' mentality.

Again, you would be surprised what a lot of farmers can do, even with hundreds of sheep going back many generations.

[SallyintNorth]

Actually, there is a definition, and it works.

A farmer drives his/her sheep, usually with a collie and/or a quad bike.  A smallholder calls theirs

(Works here too, even though we do sometimes have to drive mine  - and sometimes his all follow the quad all the way home... )

[SallyintNorth]

In fact, it's been a revelation to him, that my Jerseys come when they're called.  If they're running with the sucklers, and we want the sucklers in/moved, I just call Hillie to where we want them all, she comes a-runnin', bag swinging from side-to-side, and generally all the others follow her 

[Porterlauren]

I.e I can tell you the history of every ewe here, from looking at her. That's probably seen as a 'smallholding' mentality.

Again, you would be surprised what a lot of farmers can do, even with hundreds of sheep going back many generations.

To be honest sally, I wouldn't really. After I posted it, I realised it was a daft thing to say. Thinking of both my neighbours, with 600-1200 ewes, both could point to most ewes and tell you what she has had each year since coming into the flock.

But I like your dog definition. . . . . sort of works!

[Thyme]

Thyme - Have you ever heard the expression "the blind leading the blind".

Indeed I have.  But if I wanted to learn more physics, I wouldn't go to Stephen Hawking.  I'd look for a kind and patient physics grad student, because they'd be in the right place to tutor someone at my stage of learning.

However, if you went to do a lambing course, and it turned out that the person 'teaching' it, had a total of ten sheep, which they had lambed twice. . . . . with a total one one lamb to be pulled,with just a leg back. Never dealt with twin lamb disease, or a prolapse, never had to foster a lamb etc etc etc. Would you feel that you were really getting taught by the voice of experience.

I agree that's not enough for a lambing course.  But have you ever actually seen someone offering a lambing course with that little experience?  I mostly see much more beginner intro to smallholding courses plus stuff like how to kill and gut a chicken etc and a few years of experience seems fine for that.

[Thyme]

Actually, there is a definition, and it works.

A farmer drives his/her sheep, usually with a collie and/or a quad bike.  A smallholder calls theirs

(Works here too, even though we do sometimes have to drive mine  - and sometimes his all follow the quad all the way home... )

I tend to think of it as, if you can't buy medicines for your livestock without having to buy 5x as much as you actually need, then you're a smallholder!

Also possibly, if you are topping your pasture with a ride-on mower, then you're a smallholder (as I might have occasion to know  )

[Keepers]

I.e I can tell you the history of every ewe here, from looking at her. That's probably seen as a 'smallholding' mentality.

Again, you would be surprised what a lot of farmers can do, even with hundreds of sheep going back many generations.

Agree 

I can look at every single cow in our milking herd, and just by her face know who she is and what calves she has had over her life, (apart from one or two of the ancient ones)
There are 200 milking and to me every single one is very very different, yes they have numbers branded on their backsides but its easy to know them by their faces 

I don't honestly know the difference between smallholders and farmers, however at market if you see jacobs/ryelands/scrappy sheep come in or lots of 2 or 3 lambs, then all the old farmers will generally say they are smallholders sheep

And yes when selling cade lambs at market its always smallholders who will buy them at ridiculous prices (which is a good thing  )

I always assumed if the enterprise was set up from the beginning as hobby or just as something not aimed to be an income (so just for a few lambs for the freezer or to make pretty wool) then it would be a smallholding,
if from the beginning the sheep were bought to add some cash to the forecast and were run each year as so, its a farm 

The complected thing I suppose is when you have a farm running a small thing on the side which didnt have the purpose of income
I suppose as the whole place is a farm with something fun on the side, this just means its a farm, or maybe a funny farm 

[Kimbo]

I tend to think of it as, if you can't buy medicines for your livestock without having to buy 5x as much as you actually need, then you're a smallholder!

Wonderful definition, Thyme.

[Thyme]

There are folk teaching small holding courses, that are small holders, that remember exactly what it was like to start out, and run exactly what most are striving for, but have been doing it for enough years to have a wealth of genuine, practical knowledge, that can be invaluable to someone starting out.

One additional comment:  no-one can give someone a wealth of genuine practical knowledge on a course.  People can't take in that much crammed into a few hours or days.  The most valuable thing for people on a course is to show them stuff, so they can see how big it is and what it's shaped like and what it smells like and how long the list of things to be done this month is.

Where the people with that wealth of knowledge are really important is as mentors.  Not for running a course but all the bits of concrete advice along the way, when they see what you're trying to do and know just what you need to do it right, or when the unexpected emergency arises and they have in fact seen it all before.

In my (not that experienced with smallholding but far too experienced with courses) humble opinion 

[Porterlauren]

Some very fair points Thyme.

I think perhaps we are all different in how we like to learn and gather information.

I have no idea what I am. . . . . I suppose I don't really think about it very much, and as said. . . . i'm sure different people look at me as different things.

I remember going to a talk at my vets once, ages ago, on ewe nutrition / lambing etc. Turned out everyone there had 5-10 sheep to lamb that year and looked at me like I was a 'proper' farmer because at that point I was lambing 60.

In the same year, I was lambing for my neighbour, 600 mules indoors. We were talking about my 60, and he said "nice to have a little hobby on the side to keep you from being bored".

Different views from different folks on the same thing.

Maybe I need to think about doing some courses lol. Although one other thing I've thought. . . . . go on a course and its one persons opinion? I'm not sure how much folk would learn from a lambing course here . . . . . sheep in field, sheep have lambs. . . . . . . try not to bother them or get involved. Keep fingers crossed!

Of course there ARE things that go wrong, lambs that need pulled, lambs that need adopting on etc. But not anywhere near as many as in other systems.

Does a poor flock give the best learning?