[Old Shep]

This has turned into an interesting thread thank you!!


Derek sounds just about right for me. Lad (so far!) is a very sensitive dog like his Mum and will need quiet encouragement otherwise he'd probably go and hide underneath the nearest thing he could crawl under!


Interesting point about the lie down not being the same as what you teach in your kitchen SITN, that's the kind of thing I'm trying to avoid getting wrong at this stage.

[Me]

I understand what you are saying, Me, but I'm not sure how helpful it is.

Sally the OP asked if he was nice to his dogs, I gave a reply saying "yes" and explaining the balance of methods I had seen him use so the OP knew what to expect. You then jumped in to say I was wrong - which made things less clear I feel!

It's not helpful to say someone uses positive methods only when they don't as it may give the OP the wrong impression of how things will be. I have yet to see anyone train a sheepdog with positive reinforcement alone. That is not to say negative methods are cruel as I think I made clear in my previous posts. Negative techniques can = brilliant results and leave both dog and handler feeling very positive!

If you can understand what you are trying to achieve (eg. moving the dog off the sheep) and take the time to understand negative reinforcement training (eg. dangerous ground type things) then your training can only benefit - hence it was a helpful post.

Positive
Negative

Punishment

Very different things, Mr Derek seems to employ a lot of the first, a bit of the second and very, very, little I am sure, if any, of the third. 

[SallyintNorth]

I never said he stole the money   linky

We seem to be in violent agreement about the worth of Mr S and his methods, less so about the helpfulness or otherwise of certain terminology. 

[Me]

Yes! Well in order not to completely hijack the thread I will create a new one.... watch this space

[in the hills]

Will read the new thread with interest!

I know very little about sheep dog training but was brought up with father that trained gundogs.  My neighbour trains and trials collies and I spend time chatting about dogs with him and comparing the training of the two. He has 50 years experience and is one of the top handlers in Wales.

He doesn't start to train his dogs until about 9 months of age .... does vary depending on the individual dog .... he assesses when they are ready. Some people he says start them much younger but he believes (as does my father when training gundogs)  that they should be puppies first and not be put under pressure or 'slowed down' by early training. They have a 'look' at the sheep as younger pups every few weeks and just for a few minutes ... to assess readiness.

The 'down' command he teaches separately in the yard. Once around the sheep he may or may not insist that the dog actually lie down. A young 'head stung' dog may be encouraged to actually lie down in order to slow it down and allow it to focus and listen. With other dogs there would be no need.

I think in a similar way a gundog is taught a 'stop' whistle. Training starts on the lead and the young dog will be expected to sit. When actually working in the field the same whistle will be given but you may not insist that the dog actually sits down. It would be more desirable if the dog just stopped momentarily in order that it could be given a hand direction or whistled to come in. This way the dog is not slowed down by sitting. However, just as my neighbour might prefer his head strung young collie to actually lie down, you might insist that a young gun dog actually sit in order that it has time to focus on you and your next command.

It doesn't seem to confuse gundogs (in my experience) that the same command is used and my neighbour hasn't commented that his dogs get confused.