[Victorian Farmer]

Geneped analysis (breed analysis) is a very important conservation tool; historical data of a breed and current pedigree registration along with a number of calculations produces a comprehensive picture of the genetic makeup of the past and current day breed population. This information allows RBST to advise more effectively on conservation breeding projects; it also enables us to highlight any males that are being under used in a population and identifies those which are the least related to other males. This information also assists RBST when collecting for the gene bank; ensuring semen is collected from animals across the whole genetic range found within a breed. This is the RBST take on it

A typical analysis costs £1,000 per breed and we have at least two breeds waiting for this work to be done.

[Fleecewife]

That would be great for the Heb Soc, if we had access to the scheme or could afford to do it ourselves (it's a very small society), and had people interested enough to do the work.  I don't know if such an idea is in train as part of Committee business yet.  I don't think we have access to the scheme as organised by the RBST because Hebs are now classed as only a traditional breed, not in any danger - although those of us who keep multihorned Hebs feel they qualify as a very rare breed within the larger flock, and they are indeed endangered.

I would love to know if I am wrong here.

I was thinking that you just meant a free for all of straws, in which case the same tups would be used again and again, which would narrow down the genetic diversity of the national flock.  'As Big Light says: decent tups in the real world aren't that expensive'


When semen was collected following F&M, it was a very haphazard, disorganised process, possibly put together in a rush.  It depended on people being willing to transport their tups to a collection centre - there was ONE in Scotland - and leave them there for a month (I think it was a month).  During that time they were kept in single stalls surrounded by stone walls, although they could hear their chums next door.  They had no access to grass or fresh air, so if Primitives in these circumstances became depressed and couldn't be bothered to perform, it's hardly surprising.  I think the semen collection business has been commercialised now, but may still not suit our breed.

Kanisha - how about a condom on the tups (it would probably need to be glued on  ) so the semen could be collected during the normal tupping process?  I'm sure someone could improve on the basic idea - it would make it infinitely cheaper, more likely to succeed, give fresh viable sperm, and not disrupt one's own tupping programme.

[kanisha]

Fleecewife have seen a method of sperm retrieval which is more surgical and doesn't involve the rams active participation, I wondered if, as you say the conditions  for semen collection seem quite barbaric :-(  there were any real alternatives.

[Fleecewife]

Oh yes there's a rectal probe thing they use on stud horses in the US (according to CSI  ) and on zoo animals such as Gorillas.  Knowing what tups get up to in the privacy of their own field, they probably wouldn't even notice.

[verdifish]

My names Colin ,the only gay heb in the feild !!! Honest guv !!!

[kanisha]

Wasn't thinking along those lines but the mind boggles !! 

[Coximus]

reminds me of an amusing site once, a 4-horned Heb, a 3 Texels all lined up against a fence, I walked into the field and My Ram just gave me a nonchalant glance and continued doing what he was doing, quite literally.

[Porterlauren]

I don't mean to be rude, and I quite like them, but i'm intrigued by the choice of a Heb as a maternal ewe in a commercial flock?

Do they give lambs that grow fast enough and to a size to give a worthwhile commercial output? And what is their prolificacy?

I can see that they would have all of the needed maternal and hardiness qualities, but just wondered what it was exactly that made you pick them to run on a commercial scale out of all of the options?

[fsmnutter]

We have crossed our ram with commercial (texel mules) ewes and had stonking lambs, who we were offered £150 a head for as breeding ewe lambs at 7 months old.
Others have covered with a Texel for prime lambs that go away on a par with other commercial crosses, and I've seen long wool sires used to create a very acceptable mule type for further crossing.
Hebridean ewes require less feed, less assistance at lambing, less labour in terms of foot trimming etc because of all this hardiness, so they are a very commercial option.

[Big Light]

Plus start up costs are less expensive compared with commercial sheep - so you buy a ewe for say £50 or perhaps less compared to £80 or £100. It quickly multiplies if you are trying to start a flock up

[Coximus]

porterlauren;

I get between 150-170% lambing . Hoggets typically are about average in market.
X-bred lambs conform well but tend to be a tad lean and smaller, to sell to export trade in the ring -
 selling to the pure bred plenty of buyers like rare breed meat - they sell it at a 50% premium or more to the end customer, so are happy giving me a 20% premium - volume is limiting so some still go through ring, never disapointed and always seem to do better than most hill sheep but not as high as the "perfect" grades.

Pure lambs take 12-18 months to finish to worthwhile weight. Xbred 6-9 months.

The reason for forming a flock commercially is this simply;

1) they eat less grass so I can stock more per acre if needed /
2) they eat less grass so I can keep the same stock per acre and buy in less feed if needed
3) I run a ZERO input system - IE no supplementary feeding, No housing in winter, no licks (Unless veterinarian advised - currently magnesium lick as soil is deficient) The only feeding done is Hay / Silage / Fodder beet (which ever is cheapest) when their is more than half an inch of snow on the ground.
4) They are hard as boot leather - I've seen them live and not loose form in weather which can kill 2-3% of a normal flock. Their feet are brilliant and they seem to have more survival sense than most other breeds.

5) I select for animals that do well under these conditions (much the same method as for the easycare breed).
6) They can live and breed for 10+ years (I've got 8+yolds now and have met and seen 12yold breeding ewes in good fettle)

In short - They were the smallest (thus lowest feed req) of the 3 breeds I narrowed down to - Easycare, hebridean and Lleyn.
They offered the most £proft Per Acre of land in hand, of all the breeds, (By a margin of 40% over lleyn) - This is mostly out of me not having to buy in tons of ewe nuts, licks and their longevity meaning only half as many need to be retained for replacement breeding animals. Other savings are quite small and mostly time related.(which If I valued at £20ph/ day job rate - would be worth 100% over again so their, that alone frees me up to work elsewhere).

MOre could be made If I put more to a terminal sire, as I could get rid of the lambs 6 months earlier, and thus probably carry more ewes overall - however Id rather build up my flock so will be keeping it mostly pure for the future.

[Coximus]

ANd I got what I wanted the other night - Found under a hedge this evening with mum (MIA for 3 days) a Heb lamb, purebred from registered stock with a white topknot 4 hornbuds and lots of energy.

Bring on the diversity

[Fleecewife]

Now that's interesting coximus.  Are you registering her?  Any chance of a pic?

[Coximus]

I will take some pics on sunday afternoon - I totally forgot to get a pic as I was rushed and spent ages chasing my sisters 3 mares from trying to steal the poor thing - everyone wants a baby all of a sudden, even the mules with the 4 month old lambs.....

Whats even more interesting is the breeding history - mother was bred replacement by another breeder with no relation history of white marking, as was the ram, and the ram I know has fathered over 100 lambs in past 3 years without throwing anything like this.