[HesterF]

We're shortly planting two acres of vines. I was hoping to get muck spread but it's proved impossible (most of the farmers now hire in huge muck spreaders once a year and these are either not interested in doing our two acres or the costs of them picking up the much from an awkward access yard and getting to us - also awkward - makes it prohibitive). So now I'm thinking of putting down some general purpose fertiliser (Growmore type) and kieserite (magnesium sulphate - we're low on magnesium) by hand. Questions:

- We were going to muck spread before ploughing but now I'm thinking it best to put down the fertiliser after ploughing but before harrowing so it stays high in the soil. Does this make sense?
- Where do I buy that sort of quantity of fertiliser from? It's more than the local garden centre will stock - or be cost effective for - and less than the typical farmer needs. As ever, caught in the middle!

Any other thoughts?

[suziequeue]

We are in a similar position. We have seven small paddocks spread over five or so acres. I really want to get more proactive with the grass management and the best way I can think of is to borrow the neighbour's quad bike and buy or borrow a spinner-spreader thing and use solid/powder fertiliser etc.

It'll take a fair bit of logistical planning as we still need to rotate the stock through all of that.....

Much as I would rather have good old fashioned muck, it's not practical really.

Will be interested to hear other people's suggestions/solutions

[Big Light]

You can get 25kg bags of fertliser from your local farmers merchant for roughly £10-20 depending on composition - you cam either spread by hand or use a garden push spreader type item if you fancy lots of walking

[jaykay]

And do you how what sort of application rate it would be per acre?

I really must do something about my land. It needs lime too. I have a ground driven pellet spreader, that I can pull behind my quadbike, if I could also find a source of oelleted lime.......

[midtown]

- We were going to muck spread before ploughing but now I'm thinking it best to put down the fertiliser after ploughing but before harrowing so it stays high in the soil. Does this make sense?
- Where do I buy that sort of quantity of fertiliser from? It's more than the local garden centre will stock - or be cost effective for - and less than the typical farmer needs. As ever, caught in the middle!

Any other thoughts?

Fertiliser application post-ploughing will be of very little benefit. Anything applied to the soils leeches down anyway, with the root structure of the crop drawing the nutrients back up into the plant.
If it's absolutely impossible to get FYM onto your land, then any farmer's supply will have or should be able to obtain, a granular fertiliser suitable for spreading via quad or tractor mounted spreader.
If you haven't already got a copy, I recommend you download The Fertiliser Manual https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/69469/rb209-fertiliser-manual-110412.pdf which will provide you with a wide range of information on requirements which will benefit your venture.
Page 135 on covers vine crop requirements.

[midtown]

And do you how what sort of application rate it would be per acre?

That very much depends on analysis of what nutrients are present, and what are missing. In addition to what the land is used for - grazing pasture for cattle, sheep, horses, etc or, crops.

I really must do something about my land. It needs lime too. I have a ground driven pellet spreader, that I can pull behind my quadbike, if I could also find a source of oelleted lime.......

Have you tried a farmers supply? You should be able to get granulated lime without too much difficulty. Off the top of my head, I think it costs around £120.00 per 700kg.

[suziequeue]

I have some bags to send off for a forage analysis.  Hopefully that will give me a steer as to what needs to go on and when.

[HesterF]

We have some application recommendations from the soil analysis we had done so at least we're prepared on that one (actually soil pretty good - the manure was more to try and get the soil structure perfect although it's currently grass - now sprayed - so that will introduce plenty of veg matter once ploughed in).

Fertiliser application post-ploughing will be of very little benefit. Anything applied to the soils leeches down anyway, with the root structure of the crop drawing the nutrients back up into the plant

But that was my logic - the harrowing will turn it over into the soil so it can leech down to root level won't it? Just like you (well me) surface dress stuff around the base of established plants in the hope it works its way down eventually.

[midtown]

To keep it simple, fertilising followed by ploughing ensures nutrients are mixed into a homogeneous soil layer 20-25 cm deep, or whatever the ploughing depth is.

[HesterF]

But the vines are going down 50cm plus - we're subsoiling too because their roots go deep - I can't get fertiliser to that level whenever or however I spread it. I guess the only advantage of ploughing is that it takes it a bit closer to the roots than harrowing (which will take it maybe 10cm down?)?

[pgkevet]

My neighbouring real farmer explained his economics on muck spreading; that if he hired the tack then apart from the hire cost it was going to get it and the time spent cleaning it afterwards... so he hires a contractor to do the job instead. Kindly he got the guy to pop down and spread my 1/4 acre patch too. Dramatic sized kit - took one pass and about a whole minute to splatter rottted cow muck over my plot!

So one option is to get friendly with a local farmer and do some sort of combo deal next time he's got someone in.

My other thought is that 2 acres of vines is beyond a bit of a hobby and there's going to be serious investment in rigging up your wires etc and as you're aware you need decent working space between rows. It might well be worth thinking about a digger/driver rental and trenching the rows rather than ploughing the whole 2 acres. That'd really get you down deep and allow for getting any soil improvers where you really want them.

I only planted half a dozen dessert vines (which actually aren't doing that well after 2 years) and it was enough work setting up for double guyots for those.

[HesterF]

Yep, well beyond a hobby - thanks husband (his baby but he got lost in the detail after ordering the vines). The rest is sorted though and time is not on my side. The vines arrive May 9th, then the French planting team arrives May 11th. The vines will be planted by machine, guided by GPS. This team arrives in the UK at Dover and works their way across East to West so we'll be there first port of call. It'll take about two hours to plant two thousand vines making it cheaper, and more accurate, than hand planting.

Trouble is that's a looming deadline and before that the land needs ploughing, subsoiling and harrowing. I've got somebody to do that but he doesn't have a muck spreader. I've talked to all our local farmers - our next door neighbours contract muck spread with their twenty tonne spreader - but it's just not going to happen at this time of year unless I pay a fortune.

Trellising will happen later in the year - also paying somebody to do that. Based on my attempts to erect wires for the raspberries, it's an investment worth making. The main manual part will be laying over 2km of weed matting (after the vines are in) and adding canes, ties and rabbit netting to each vine. Oh, my summer will be a long, happy one!

[midtown]

With the time constraints involved, I think you'll be pushing it a bit!
Bear in mind that with the incorporation of farm yard manure, its important that it should be well rotted otherwise you're going to run the risk of burning the vines roots.

[clydesdaleclopper]

Personally I wouldn't plough it in. If you look at the work done by permaculturists the best method is top dressing after planting and letting the earth worms pull it down into the soil. This way the effects last longer as if it is just rotted muck it won't have formed humus and will burn up pretty quickly in the soil. Clay is needed to turn muck or compost into humus which is what you really want for soil improvement as it is a more stable compound. The advantage with top dressing is that you can direct it exactly where you need it so it isn't being wasted in the access paths between the vines. I would also recommend planting some dynamic accumulator plants around the vines. You might find the book "Weeds guardians of the soil" which you can access free from the online Soil and Health library an interesting read.

[HesterF]

Yep, pushing it was why I've abandoned manure for now & was thinking of fertiliser instead. I did wonder about waiting until the vines are in and putting a sprinkling of bone meal and fertiliser on the surface underneath the weed matting. We top dressed all the trees around the wind break (just planted) with rotted manure and compost but that was a hell of a job by hand and no way can we manage that for three times as many vines (not to mention we exhausted our manure supply and have no easy means of getting the next batch down). The rows will be interplanted with clover between the weed matting - happy bees, lots of honey and some nitrogen fixing to boot. We'll foliage spray for magnesium but I though it might help if I spread some of that too. I'll ask around to find out where I can buy kieserite in small(ish) quantities.

H