[SteveHants]

I had no idea you were allowed top open castrate yourself. I'll be asking my vet about this - I still have my dissection kit from college, all I need is new sharps...

[chonty]

So all you boys out there would be happy to do open castration? Im squirming at the thought!

[SallyintNorth]

We have the vet to castrate the odd bullock when for some reason we haven't burdizzoed or ringed.  It's so quick, and the knife is so sharp, you never ever see any sign that the bullock has noticed. 

I'm not sure about doing it myself to lambs though - the scalpel bit would be ok, it's the making sure you have all the cords and don't get a bleed  .  I may ask the vet about it though.

Yes we'd be worried about flies on the wound too - on cattle you might use Swish or something to keep the flies away, I guess you could do something similar with the tup lambs.

And I really really don't want to ask this (picture ostrich with head in sand)... but I have to.  What and where is the evidence on the downside of ringing?  I have always based my understanding on my own experience of having a haemmerhoid banded - gosh I didn't like it, and felt very sorry for myself for maybe 24 hours, but after that, no problem.  And after doing many hundreds of lambs, I am very comfortable now with my technique and find that generally the lambs either don't react much at all, or walk a bit stiff-legged for a few minutes, or very occasionally thrash about and cry for up to 10 minutes.  When I first started doing it, I got a lot more of the thrashing about type, to the extent that I would make sure I had the lambs and ewe somewhere safe where the lamb wouldn't be endangered if it couldn't get up and run with mum for 10-20 minutes.  (And no, I wasn't snagging the testicles - but I think when you are new to it, you probably faffle on more and maybe cause more bruising; when you are very practised it's nearly always very swift and sure.)

[SteveHants]

There are no nerve endings in the internal wall of the gut, sal - the discomfort you will have felt would have been due to the procedure. There are plenty around the testes though and I guess that having them ringed would be prolonging the pain, wheras the damage is mostly internal when you use a scalpel, and like you say, quick, sharp cuts seem not to hurt too much.

[chonty]

Well blimey sally now that is sharing! And yep relatively few nerve endings in gut wall so not quite the same. Evidence? Well ive not read any papers just defra advice really. I do know it may be on the cards to ban ringing or only use if local anaesthetic has been used. But that doesnt really scan because the local would only be effective for a few hours then what?

Perhaps farmvet could be able to elaborate on this one?

[Whittsend]

 I found this thread fascinating . The ram lamb, Welsh Mountain,  which my neighbour farmer gave me last Monday as a day old, which had been abondoned / got separated from Mum,  is definately going to be kept as a pet ,to join my Three coloured Ryeland ewes. After advice on this forum about getting him ringed quickly I took him to the vet in Rhuthun on Thursday. She said that she could feel both testicles were in the sack but then spent ages trying to position everything to put the ring on. In the end she said that she could not feel confident to place the ring on because his testicles were in danger of sliping back into the body or being only partially ringed. Since I was going to keep him as a pet, and wanted to be sure I didn't end up with a Rig,  she has suggested that I take him back in a couple of weeks. They will give him a local anesthetic, make a small incision to remove the testies ( no need to stitch she said because the skin will self close) and then give him a shot of antbiotics.  This is obviously a much more expensive way to castrate but that is not an issue since he now has the status of a cat or a dog in my emotions.  Has anyone else ever heard of /had experience of lambs being castrated this way ?

[smallflockshearing]

I saw a video on YouTube a few years back of two US cowboys (term used in the pejorative sense rather than defining their career choice) castrating lambs by slitting the bottom of the scrotum then peeling back and biting off the testes.  Not convinced of the ethical status of this - however they seemed to be saying that this was a traditional method...
Barbaric in my mind...

[sandy oaks farm]

Shady oaks farm/jackwebb@socal.rr.com. can any one e-mail me a copy.

thanks,
jack

[twizzel]

We castrate, it saves the issue of having to put the ram lambs away from the ewe lambs from Aug onwards. They go to slaughter Aug-Nov. We bought a few store lambs last year and 1 was a ram, it caused no end of trouble as he wasn't ready to slaughter until November, so all rams are banded.

[ladyK]

Very interesting thread.
Anyone here using the burdizzo method you could share their experience with that?

[farmvet]

I think burdizzo's are quite fiddly to use.  You need to crush both cords individually twice. The crushes on the cords need to be off set from each other so the scrotum still has a blood supply & just the testes die off. You can test the burdizzos - they should cut through a piece of straw inside a folded sheet of paper without cutting the paper. Most recommend 30-60 seconds crush per site. You do need 2 people as you can't hold the lamb & operate the burdizzos very easily.  Legally you can castrate your own lambs up to 3 months old, above that they should be done by a vet.

[Blacksheep]

We leave ours entire and keep separate to ewes and ewe lambs from weaning, however last year our neighbour castrated a few lambs for us going for stores.  The lambs seem to tolerate this quite well considering what is being done, and didn't seem too stressed afterwards, and it obviously has the benefit of no open wound.  However our neighbour is very experienced at using the burdizzo and I think you would need to be confident in their use.

[mowhaugh]

I found this thread fascinating . The ram lamb, Welsh Mountain,  which my neighbour farmer gave me last Monday as a day old, which had been abondoned / got separated from Mum,  is definately going to be kept as a pet ,to join my Three coloured Ryeland ewes. After advice on this forum about getting him ringed quickly I took him to the vet in Rhuthun on Thursday. She said that she could feel both testicles were in the sack but then spent ages trying to position everything to put the ring on. In the end she said that she could not feel confident to place the ring on because his testicles were in danger of sliping back into the body or being only partially ringed. Since I was going to keep him as a pet, and wanted to be sure I didn't end up with a Rig,  she has suggested that I take him back in a couple of weeks. They will give him a local anesthetic, make a small incision to remove the testies ( no need to stitch she said because the skin will self close) and then give him a shot of antbiotics.  This is obviously a much more expensive way to castrate but that is not an issue since he now has the status of a cat or a dog in my emotions.  Has anyone else ever heard of /had experience of lambs being castrated this way ?

It will be fine that way, but I am disappointed the vet couldn't manage to put a ring on!  If you position the lamb correctly, you can hold the band open in position with the elastrators with one hand, the gently squeeze the testicles up into the scrotum with the other hand, then release the band.  I would have thought someone at the vets should have been able to do it, althopugh I suppose much more sensible to say she didn't feel confident than bash on and make a mess of it.

[Hellybee]

the hill farmers round here dont seem to dock, i suppose its to do with the fact that they grazw very differently and this would possibly make them cleaner worm wise and also theyre grazing would be less lush.  we are docking here, barry does that and does a great job too, starting to see some very neat looking docked tails.   we do it as it lessens the likelyhood of strike, we too use crovect, its the best at its job, nowt compares imho

[SallyintNorth]

the hill farmers round here dont seem to dock

Some hill breeds aren't docked because the mothers living out all year need the woolly tail to protect the rear parts and udder from the cold.   It is said that a Swaledale ewe can live for a week on the fat stored in her tail - and sometimes she needs to be able to do that if the snow comes and a blow, burying sheep until it thaws.

Most farmers hereabouts give the girls a 'tupping trim' - making sure access is clear for the tup  .  Lower down they clip the whole tail about 7-10 days before turning the tups out, on the higher ground they just trim the top 6 inches of the tail, leaving her looking like a poodle with a woolly pompom! 

Northern shortails of course don't need to be docked, they naturally have just enough to cover their modesty  , and usually have wool over the udder to keep it warm through any kind of winter.   Commercial farmers prefer a clean udder - easier for the lamb to find its way - so then the long woolly tail is required in the breeds living in tougher conditions.

I think you're probably right about these breeds on the hill also staying cleaner behind - but there's a significant genetic component in propensity to flystrike, so I guess over many generations these have also self-selected for resistance to strike.