[shygirl]

Shygirl, I should have said... whilst I do think the comments you overheard are racist, I do also agree with everyone who says that the people expressing those feelings would not be thinking of you as the hated English they were discussing.  So absolutely don't take it personally. 

i know. when they realised what they had said infront of me there was an awkard silence then they apologized. just gave me an insight of what is said behind closed doors.

[doganjo]

Shygirl, I should have said... whilst I do think the comments you overheard are racist, I do also agree with everyone who says that the people expressing those feelings would not be thinking of you as the hated English they were discussing.  So absolutely don't take it personally. 

i know. when they realised what they had said infront of me there was an awkard silence then they apologized. just gave me an insight of what is said behind closed doors.

So did you explain to them why they were thinking that way, and said those things and why they should never say them again? A history lesson?  I think you should, if you haven't already,

in fact to all of you on here who obviously don't understand what I am saying - I agree that racism is wrong and should not be tolerated, but racism is against particular individuals and to me the talk mentioned was aimed at a whole Nation - that is a lack of intelligence and education - so the answer is to teach people exactly what happened in the 12th Century and subsequently (AND to Wales too remember, I'm reading a great book just now about a young woman who slipped back in time into the middle of the Welsh troubles from the 19th Century - worth reading - I'll try to find the title and author)

Educate and remove stigma and intolerance! Always!

[Q]

If your company has a policy for racial discrimination, you may have an obligation to deal with the issue properly.

[bloomer]

but talk against a whole nation is racism


if i said all Muslims are terrorists (its an example, i don't actually think it) I would be guilt of racism (and several other crimes under modern law)


where is the difference between that and all English people???


I can give further examples if required, but there really is no difference...


I love Scotland and I know its history, for me its the best place I have ever lived, but for a small minority it seems acceptable to distinguish against people for being English.


I know of several examples of someone with an English accent trying to buy something and being refused but a Scottish friend made the purchase on there behalf no problem... It does happen and the fact some Lords in the 12th Century (and for a long time afterwards) did some pretty crappy things, doesn't mean people living here now should put up with it...

[in the hills]

That's what I was just mulling over, Bloomer.

If my children made certain negative comments about a nation, whatever it's history, there would be "discussion" about it.

[doganjo]

You're still missing the point - what these women really mean is the ENGLISH Government not the people themselves!  What happened all those years ago is being perpetuated now.

I really don't want to bring in the political aspect but to be honest this is exactly what it is - ask each one of those women what they think of their English neighbours and you'll find the truth. I'll bet they are best friends with a  lot of English people.

We are still being controlled by London - as was seen in the jobs figures last night - 300,000 new jobs in London area, 3000 in Edinburgh and that's the best of them in Scotland!

No nation is all bad or all good - but governments are!

Education is what is needed.   Yes, in the hills - discussion - explain the history and why they have thought to use those words and explain to them why they should not use them again.  Discussion = education.

[Rosemary]

I think making judgements about people based on their race, religion etc etc is wrong but we're all human and most of us probably think bad things from time to time. Thankfully, we can't, as yet, be banged up for thinking things 

A lot of the anti-English stuff in Scotland stems from an inferiority complex that we Scots have about our English neighbours (in the broadest sense) - we need to get past it. Hopefully a Yes vote in September will give us the confidence to go forward on an equal footing with the nation that should be our closest ally, friend and partner.

[MikeM]

You're still missing the point - what these women really mean is the ENGLISH Government not the people themselves!  What happened all those years ago is being perpetuated now.

hmmm, that is not what they said:
 
"had a crap day at work today. the scottish wifeys must have forgotten i was there as they were talking being at the movies and about having to sit next to these English people with such hatred in their voices, it was if they had to sit next to someone who had shat themselves."
 
How do you know what they actually meant was the British government in Westminster (history lesson, it hasn't been the English government for a long time)?. Have you spoken to them to ascertain why they said these clearly racist things?
 As for using what happened hundreds of years ago to justify racism now, that is plainly ridiculous and evidence of a particularly small mind and spirit.

[in the hills]

I don't think I missed the point at all.

Understand the historical and current situations.

Don't understand the need for Shygirl to be spoken to by her neighbours in that way or what the historical or current political situations have to do with anti- English comments she over heard. You could try to justify many racist comments/actions in a similar way surely. They are often directed at a group or nation rather than an individual but are surely still racist.

Bit sad if Shygirl has to 'educate' colleagues and neighbours.  Still I'm sure it is the minority of people around you Shygirl and not most.

[Fleecewife]

Err....my history is a bit shakey, but surely 'the English' in the ancient battles you mention includes lowland Scots?


I was born in England and moved up to Scotland to go to Uni and stayed here ever since - 44 years except for a couple of years in Yorkshire and another couple in Anglesey.  I married a Scot (who is often thought to be English because he doesn't have a broad accent) and have one son born in Scotland, the other in England, both 'genetically' half and half  .  The Scots born one had some major racist issues when he worked in England - such as 'f### off back to your own country you f###### Jock'   Great - it's not just one sided and at the moment I often feel that the anti Scots climate in England is fuelled by the Government knocking the Scots over devolution and independence ie it suits their political ends.  So between Braveheart on the one hand and some stirring from the Westminster folk (even the anti independence Scots) via the media, racial antipathy has become mutual, although based on prejudice not knowledge.  Huge shame and what a load of claptrap.  I love having all sorts of people from other nations here, even when there are major problems as new families settle into Britain.

But shygirl's experience was the other way round.  I think a lot of how you feel about this, and whether or not it persists, is about how you react to it.  As with every bullying situation, if those doing it feel they have scored a hit then they will persevere.  If you turn it into a discussion not a row then that will help to defuse the situation.  Jumping on high horses, however offended you actually feel, will not help in any way, but may well just fuel the negativity.  I think it's true that once we get to know individuals of whatever nation, then we stop 'hating' (ie prejudging) the whole nation.

There is and I think always has been, this tendency amongst humans to notice the differences between their group, be it clan, nation, accent, language, beliefs or financial status, and to fight about it.  Look back through world history and that's about all you see.  Lack of racial prejudice is a sign of good education and of increasing globalisation.   I can quite imagine that once as a world we meet another inhabited planet it will revert back to 'us' and 'them', where the 'us' will be all the nations of Earth.

[feldar]

help i'm in trouble then! product of an English Daddy and very Scotish Mummy. What would they call me ....a half breed   probably

[Bodger]

I think making judgements about people based on their race, religion etc etc is wrong but we're all human and most of us probably think bad things from time to time. Thankfully, we can't, as yet, be banged up for thinking things 

A lot of the anti-English stuff in Scotland stems from an inferiority complex that we Scots have about our English neighbours (in the broadest sense) - we need to get past it. Hopefully a Yes vote in September will give us the confidence to go forward on an equal footing with the nation that should be our closest ally, friend and partner.

But we're already your closest ally,friend and partner.
Saying that " the anti English stuff in Scotland stems from an inferiority complex that we Scots have about our English neighbours " is about as good an excuse for racism as the lawyer who tries to excuse 'thieving Jonnys' hooligan ways on a deprived childhood.
There's nothing wrong with being pro Scottish or pro Welsh, but there just isn't any reason why being nationalistic has to come hand in hand with being anti English.

[SallyintNorth]

I think I've told this story before, but it's appropriate so I'll tell it again.

A little over 15 years ago, I worked in an office where two English people shared a desk with a Scot and a Welsh person.  We were all really good friends, got on extremely well, did social things together too.

Then there was a world cup qualifiers or some such tournament.  The two English folk supported teams as follows:

• If England is playing, then England
• If England is not playing, then whomever of Scotland, Wales or Ireland is playing
• Otherwise the team opposing any team that has recently beaten England

My Scottish and Welsh friends openly admitted, that, they said, like most of their respective races, they supported:

• If their own national team is playing, then that team
• If their own national team is not playing, then if England is playing, the team opposing England (even if that team recently beat their own national team  )
• Otherwise, any team that has recently beaten England

Hrmph. 

[Bodger]

I'm like you Sally. I'm an Englishman whose lived in Wales since 1988. I support Wales in every game they play other than when their game is against England. As far as the other home nations are concerned, I also support them when they are playing against 'foreign' teams.

[doganjo]

Ok forget I spoke!  My opinion doesn't matter in the bigger scale of things anyway  

Maybe I see things more politically than most.  I am passionate by nature, I can't help it.  For that, I do not apologise, but I apologise if anyone on here takes what I say the wrong way.   I really dislike the way the government treats us Scots - let's be honest here  - they do not have a clue what goes on past the M25!

I am trying to show that these women may NOT have intended to be racist, nor even imagined that they were.

In my opinion, it is up to ALL of us to educate our friends and neighbours if they bad mouth anyone else - whether for their race, colour, height, girth or anything else.  I honestly doubt these women would have said these things direct to their cinema neighbours (and we don't know what may have annoyed them to say those things either) - as Shygirl said they immediately apologised to her when they realised what they were doing.  I  can't possibly know what was in their minds of course I can't.  I can only assume that they really are NOT bad people since Shygirl works with them.

Edward had better not reincarnate!    I'll be ready for him!