[MAK]

This data comes from todays Independent. It picks up on a thread related to wolves.
The article suggests that annually :
100,000 seep are killed by dogs
5,000 sheep are killed by wolves.

Given the very low number of wolves in France it seems that sheep are popular lunch for the wolf. The projected growth and expansion of the wolf population surpried me.

[SallyintNorth]

We started the conversation in a different thread, so I'll cut and paste my comments from there to here.

 I am a big fan of wolves and always interested to hear about (proper) re-introduction and its successes and problems.

I watched a programme about the wolves they've reintroduced to Yellowstone National Park in the States.  They found some very interesting things.  Firstly, wolves hunt only to eat, they do not have energy to spare to hunt for fun.  They will use hunting and the prey they've caught to train the cubs to hunt, of course.  Secondly, because wolves are organised and live and hunt in packs, they hunt only prey which is large enough to feed the pack.  So they tend to leave alone small prey animals.  In Yellowstone this has meant they tend to feed mainly on the caribou.  Prior to the reintroduction of the wolves, the caribou had had no real predator and had wandered at will, drunk where and when they liked, and so on.  Now they have to be more cautious as there could be wolves about, and there has been a massive increase in biodiversity at all levels throughout the Park.  The caribou no longer destroy all saplings at the water's edge, so that woodland has come back down to the waterside.  This has helped the beaver, who now has more trunks available for dambuilding.  Beaver dams increase biodiversity up and downstream of the dams, and that in turn feeds larger animals, birds, etc.

I previously wrote

So far I haven't heard of reintroductions where there are farmed sheep, and one would have to wonder whether the pack would find they could pick off as many sheep as they needed.   And of course things could be very different when there is a lone wolf having to feed himself - he'd take smaller prey, as he's only himself to feed and no pack to help him hunt.  But he would surely only take what he needs and not waste energy hunting for fun. 

but MAK has now linked to that article in the Independent so I can't say that any more!

It's an interesting article, thanks for that link MAK.

It raises the question whether the farmers should adapt to live alongside the wolf, rather than all wildlife being subordinated to farming. 

These are interesting times.  We are all now pleased to see more birds of prey in our skies, well maybe except those folks rearing ground-nesting birds for shooting   I'd love there to be wild wolves a-roamin' and a-howlin' again - but I wouldn't like them taking my sheep any more than the next farmer.   

[john and helen]

To have things returned to the wild, should be a good thing, but i guess its how you see it..

as a livestock keeper i can see this would be a big problem , unless they are willing to upgrade all the fences, to make them wolf, or predator proof…

on the other hand..how many things are we prepared to loose through our own gains,

 wolves have as much right to be free as any other creature, its only us who make the rules to suit our own needs

don't get me wrong, i go out rough shooting for the rabbits and pigeon, but i do feel we have got greedy as a race,

we will freely shoot a animal that is causing harm…yet a human who drinks and drives, rapes or murders just gets locked up….. its a funny old world 

[honeyend]

There is a growing problem with deer, and there are plans to do more culling perhaps a wolf would be more of a natural predator. I would think foxes are a far bigger problem than wolves.
 I do despair that the default attitude is we don't like it so lets kill it, more animals of all kinds are killed by cars than predation and can not understand the glee people take in killing animals with guns for sport, not for food.
  I live on the outskirts of a fairly large town with green space between and flood plain. It amazes me that people walk, cycle, ride and go on the bus through this area but rarely see the roe deer, monkjack, badgers, foxes that live there, they really just want to keep out of our way, I only see them because I have seasonal grazing and check animals at odd hours.

[chrismahon]

It's a constant battle to keep your livestock from becoming deadstock before they are supposed to. Whilst losing a few sheep from a flock of hundreds may seem trivial, that is probably the difference between profit and loss for the commercial farmer. For the smallholder losing a few sheep could be the entire flock!


Dogs are a really big problem here, far more so than foxes are in the UK. So I guess if they controlled the dogs there would be a margin available for wolves. We had a dog wander past our enclosure yesterday which sent the chickens into a frenzy. Two dogs are a pack and hunt as such -I've seen it too often in the last year. They work each other into a frenzy and could break into the enclosure with relative ease, whereas a solitary fox or a solitary dog wouldn't bother trying. So two Wolves worries me -would they attack people?

[SallyintNorth]

So two Wolves worries me -would they attack people?

It certainly used to be the case that there was no documented case of an unprovoked wolf attack on a human; they only ever seem to attack if cornered, protecting young, or diseased (rabies.)  Whether that's still true I'm not sure.

[MAK]

I would not worry about the wolves Chris - its the Asian Hornets and the vipers you should worry about 
The hunt dogs rarely come on our land despite working close or walking down the road - maybe because their owners would beat the life out of them with a stick. We have seen a few terrible acts of cruelty to dogs. One escaped dog was caught by our neighbour and her grandaughter and the old lady (83 yrs) held it aloft by a rear leg and then carried it upside down all the way home and into its shed - not a nice sight.

Some good comments below. The debate of wildlife living amongst farm animals , hunting or culling seems to be (generally speaking) under the ownership of those with strong views related to beliefs or income from farming. Maybe the neutrals need to discuss this too.

[madchickenlady]

I think I would rather see deer managed in a natural way rather than the inevitable human culling, after all it is not just a meal for a wolf pack, nature ensures that many levels of wildlife benefit from a kill, nature cleans up after itself rather than us tidy humans who remove the entire carcase and then incinerate the 'waste' even the soil and plants benefit, I do however understand the concerns of livestock keepers having lost chickens to foxes, but many countries have wolf populations and seem to get along ok.

[cloddopper]

I'd rather see the deer heavily culled for meat by humans for humans instead of feeding 70 plus pound dogs that will track & eat humans when hungry .

 You have to ask yourselves why wolves were taken out of the UK set up in the first place &  how you would  feel if a pack of eight or nine hungry wolves ripped your kiddy or close relative to bits and ate it after you had successfully pleaded for their reinstatement. ......  Pretty sick I'm sure !

[SallyintNorth]

It certainly used to be the case that there was no documented case of an unprovoked wolf attack on a human; they only ever seem to attack if cornered, protecting young, or diseased (rabies.)  Whether that's still true I'm not sure.

[petectid]

I'd rather see the deer heavily culled for meat by humans for humans instead of feeding 70 plus pound dogs that will track & eat humans when hungry .

 You have to ask yourselves why wolves were taken out of the UK set up in the first place &  how you would  feel if a pack of eight or nine hungry wolves ripped your kiddy or close relative to bits and ate it after you had successfully pleaded for their reinstatement. ......  Pretty sick I'm sure !

Your being a bit emotive here clodhoppers the number of wolf attacks on man is very low not even annual in amongst large populations in the new world.  I'm not aware of any in Europe in the expanding populations there, they are very wary of man and tend to give us a wide berth.  I suppose anyone including myself are concerned about attacks on our flocks and herds but we will have to adapt to whatever the future brings.  I'm pretty certain that if we had wolves in my local area that the fox population would not be out of control and the governments deer initiative which culls entire populations indiscriminately would not be required.

[moony]

In 2011 in France there were approximately 8 million dogs and 200 wolves. The statistic on deaths also takes into account deaths by wild dogs which are a very large problem in certain regions. That's 40000 dogs for every wolf. If every dog killed at the same rate as the wolves there would be 200 million sheep killed every year. The wolves are also primarily based in the isolated mountainous regions where their paths do not really cross with intensively stocked farms. Doesn't matter whether the wolves are killing to eat or not. They still kill for which the government in most European countries then has to compensate the owner. When people suggest introducing them to control deer, do they really think that wolves will firstly be introduced throughout the UK? Its population is far too dense and then do they really think they would prefer to hunt an athletic deer than a couple of Suffolks in a pen which fall over at the thought of exercise. Then there is also the question of what controls the wolves. The only place in the UK where it would ever really be seriously considered is the most remote parts of Scotland, but again that will never happen due to the access laws as the estate owners would face rather hefty legal action when wolves and walkers clash.

[MAK]

Mooney gives a good perspective on this one and he demonstrates how sometimes our love of all wildlife can sometimes be distorted because of a romantic or distorted views about the lives and futures of wild animals. Maybe some of us have a guilt complex about the plight of wild life such as wolves, foxes, badgers etc.
I am not sure where I stand on the Wolf / dog and sheep issue, probabley becuase I do not have sheep and have had no encounters with wolves or nasty dogs.   

[petectid]

There is a landowner up in the North West Highlands that wants to re-introduce the Wolves to his 23000 acre estate, will this ever happen?  I don't know, but you can never say it will not, there have already been a few apex predators re-introduced into the UK so why not the Wolf?  A good point in a previous post about the proximity to towns has been made, but the wolves in France are believed to have moved into an area close to a small town and Britain looks pretty rural when you fly over it.