[Backinwellies]

 

Kass is a lovely lass (with one eye). She is about 10 months old and from a rescue. She has fab herding skills (self trained!!!)  which I need to control into something useful.    She is confined to a long training lead when out as we are surrounded by sheep here. 

When i do get her into sheep free ,   lamb (and puppy proof) field she loves to run but now has decided that if I call  Kass come or sit (which she does indoors fine)   then there must be sheep to chase so races off to the fences to look for sheep...........(if it wasn't such a pain it is quite commical seeing her go to sit then brian kicks in , ears prick up and off she races) ......   suggestions on how to instill the return to me command?

[SallyintNorth]

Collies make connections very quickly.  It's best not to try to teach a collie what you mean, rather to tell it what it is doing right now and then use that word as a command for that behaviour.

If hearing you call 'Come' (or whatever your recall command is) makes her look for sheep, then you have used that command when she was looking at sheep, and she has associated the command with looking at sheep.

So what you need to practise is a word/sound that you use as she comes back to your hand.  Then, after a few repetitions of this over a few days, you should start to be able to use it to get her to come to your hand. 

But build it up over small distances without distractions for a while, gradually increasing the distance, or adding distractions, then both, and so on, so that by the time you use it with sheep in the picture, she's already conditioned to run to your hand.

The other thing I would also do in this situation, where I am assuming you do not want her to work sheep, is to make sure she turns to look at you when you call her name.  Then, when she sees sheep, get her attention on you, not the sheep, and only then use the come-to-my-hand sound.

If you do want her to work sheep then you do not want her to look away from the sheep unless you have given her a stop working command, so the advice would be slightly different.

[jaykay]

I'd read 'Total Recall' by.... I can't remember whom, and it's on my ipad which is at work. But I'm sure putting that title into Amazon will find it.

It's brilliant, and I am working through it and it is working with 'Daisy - my brain is wired so that my ears switch off when my nose switches on' 10 month old Golden Retriever rescue pup.

And if it works with her, it will certainly work with a border collie!

[in the hills]

Good answer from SITN.


I trained my Flattie that "come" in a hurried tone meant in Flattie language "dogs around". He would do exactly the same as your pup. Stop dead and scan the horizon. There must be a dog somewhere and I'm off to play. 


Back to basics.

[SallyintNorth]

I'd read 'Total Recall' by.... I can't remember whom, and it's on my ipad which is at work. But I'm sure putting that title into Amazon will find it.

Google found this by Pippa Mattinson.

Glad to hear you are making progress with Daisy, jaykay!   

I haven't read Total Recall so the following could be uninformed rubbish  - but on the Pippa Mattinson page she says it's a reward-based training system. 

One of the problems with training collies is that they are often not particularly motivated by food - and even those that are often find sheep more interesting than a titbit - and that because they think so fast, a reward after the event may not make the desired association for them.

If you have a collie not particularly motivated by food then you can try to replace the food with some other object that it becomes fixated with - get them obsessive about a tennis ball, for instance - and use that as a reward.  That's if you don't mind your collie being totally obsessed with a tennis ball     And nothing gets obsessed quite so totally and devotedly as a collie 

Because of the timing thing, you may have better luck with a collie using a clicker system, where you first condition the dog to associate the clicker with the treat (be it food or a tennis ball - whatever most motivates your particular dog) and then you can use the clicker to indicate "Yes, that's right" when the dog is doing the behaviour, rather than have to wait until it has finished the behaviour.

(With apologies to Pippa Mattinson if she says all that in her book. )

[Bionic]

My dog (definitely not a collie) darts away each time I call him to 'come' as he thinks its a game. I have recently discovered that if I do a certain whistle he comes straight away.
Might be worth trying something like that

[Backinwellies]

Huge thanks to all ...........  yes typical collie ..........food is good motivator if nothing else around!    I'd hoped a ball would do it (as it did for my previous collie.... where total recall took 20 mins to achieve with a ball after months with food) ........... but Kass's one eye means she soon loses track of any thing small thrown. She is happy chasing my other dog who is ball obsessed.

I wondered about buying a whistle .... hadn't thought of clicker............... hmmmm lots to think about

[in the hills]

I think SITN is right in that some dogs won't work for food based rewards. Our Flattie cares not too hoots for a food reward so no good using that as an incentive to come. If he thinks that you are carrying a dummy or tennis ball then nothing else matters to him and he is totally "with" you. Whisper his name and he is back. Like carrying a sheep under your arm for a collie. 


Don't know much about training collies but our collie expert neighbour told me not to worry about a recall in the early days. If there were sheep anywhere around (in sight of the pup) he wouldn't expect a recall and wouldn't really want one .... pup should be looking for those sheep. Instead pup would run on a long line and could be caught by standing on the line if he didn't return as you walked off giving a brief shout of his name. No fuss made because pup was doing right in watching those sheep.


This was if you intended working pup but if not then I suppose general recall obedience lessons apply.


If not working then you could try the usual. I run away. Never go towards pup .... because then it does becomes a game. Wave arms, make silly noises, play with the tennis ball yourself, make a big fuss of your other dog and walk off. Go briefly out of sight.


Use recall at feed time. My lab pup (food obsessed) gets one piece of her kibble everytime she comes back indoors and sometimes when she returns to me of her own free will when out playing (as she is heading to me I give the recall .... she's obeying cause she's coming anyway  ).


Sheep temptation to a collie is very strong so my neighbour doesn't keep calling. They are then learning to disobey .... just avoids that situation. Most dogs have a trigger, a strong temptation. Other breeds have other temptations.

[Backinwellies]

Thanks again

Yes I do intend using her with sheep  so no havent stopped any of the sheep focussed behaviour  or continued to call when she gets focussed (if I'm lucky and she is my side of fence then I just walk up to her vague location and stand there till she focuses on me then get her to sit .......... which sometimes works and gets lots of praise ..... if I have to take hold of collar then just firmly direct her away and praise when we are walking inmy direction.   
On the odd occasion when she has found a minute hole in fence and sheep get full exercise!!    I usually have to wait till she needs a drink so locate myself at her watering hole and nab her there.  (again no telling off or praise) ........ trouble is collies pick up on such minute signals that we are probably totally unaware we have made.

[Bionic]

Like carrying a sheep under your arm for a collie. 

I like this idea. Carry a sheep permanently under your arm and you won't have any problems 

[SallyintNorth]

Yes I do intend using her with sheep 

Ah, ok.  Then your recall command will be your "That'll do" command - it means stop working, attention on me, come to me (unless I give you another command en route.)

And you absolutely do not want this dog obsessing about anything other than sheep 

It's still a good idea to develop a come-straight-to-my-hand command; you use it later on when you want her to come through the sheep to split them.

Frankly I'd start working her with the sheep; it gets a whole lot easier to control them around sheep once they know they will get to work with them.  And there's your object-of-obsession, right there!  A collie which does as it's asked gets to work the sheep some more... 

[Backinwellies]

Ok   .................. so best way to start working sheep  and  avoiding heart attack (from sheep or me!!!) 

[Old Shep]

I find with collies that its often easier to train an instant down than a recall.  You will need this anyway if you are going to work sheep with her.  If she will drop to command she can still look at the sheep but not chase.

[SallyintNorth]

Ok   .................. so best way to start working sheep  and  avoiding heart attack (from sheep or me!!!)

Get Derek Scrimgeour's DVD The Shepherd's Pup I think it is.  And/or his book Talking Sheepdogs.  And/or come on one of his training days near Carlisle.

I can write a bit more later, in a rush now.

[Backinwellies]

Love to go on training day .... Carlisle  a bit far from south Wales ....  anyone know anybody down here?


With the encouragement here I have just managed twice this morn to go out with Frisbee in field next to sheep and had Kass hardly notice sheep ..... good to feel that I don't have to 'catch' her every time to bring her in (no I don't chase after her just hold her collar when she stops)