[lachlanandmarcus]

Talk on the farming forum suggests that the bull may have been a brown Swiss breed one.


 Interesting if so as I think they are a dairy breed.  but ........aren't one of of the listed recognised dairy breeds specified in the Act which is basically a list of UK dairy breeds. One wonders if the legislation has kept up with farming bloodstock policies. I was surprised that the act doesnt say 'recognised dairy breed (for example: x, y, z) rather than 'recognised dairy breed (x y z)'


Will be interesting to see the facts as they emerge. Just very sad someone lost their life and their wife badly injured and no doubt farmer also traumatised.

[RUSTYME]

I may have got this wrong as i only use an old mobile to connect to the internet , but didn't this tragic event happen 3 years ago ? November 2010 i read .
So there should be plenty of details available online of what happened .

[Hassle]

what are the laws on putting up warning signs? the village surrounds our lan so not sure where to put the sign up??

You are not allowed to put up warning signs, this is because it means the bull maybe dangerous, so no more "Beware of the Bull", you are now only allowed to inform people that there is a "Bull in Field" (I am only aware of rules relating to England on this matter).

I put the signs on the foot path and vehicular entrances to my fields, although I do padlock those.

[shygirl]

what are the laws on putting up warning signs? the village surrounds our lan so not sure where to put the sign up??

You are not allowed to put up warning signs, this is because it means the bull maybe dangerous, so no more "Beware of the Bull", you are now only allowed to inform people that there is a "Bull in Field" (I am only aware of rules relating to England on this matter).

I put the signs on the foot path and vehicular entrances to my fields, although I do padlock those.

the gates by the village dont belong to me, i just have right of access through the gates. my gates are up by my house. i think i will get some signs asap.
anyone any idea about right to roam??

[Fowgill Farm]

You can get signs from your local NFU office, we have them, our problem is that every field around us has a public footpath thro it, it would be a rare find to find a field that didn't and there's a woman in the village who makes sure they are all walked at least once a year so that they don't lapse(some of them have if not used for so many years they lapse clauses on them)
We normally have an Angus bull in with the summer heifers but they're a bit younger this year so not sure if he will be coming to stay. The sight of him certainly puts off most walkers and we do have less thro during the summer months. The path actually walks right past our sitting room window tho most people just cut across the middle of the field. You do get the odd nosy sod tho.
Mandy
 

[SallyintNorth]

On liability and 'right to roam'...

There is no 'right to roam' in England.  What there is, is land designated as 'Open Access'.  On such land, the public is allowed to roam at will.  To walk on land not so designated would be trespass.

There seems to have been no thought given to public safety in introducing these changes.  For instance, on the moorland farm there are hundreds of acres now designated Open Access.  Many of them are fenced off and treacherous.  But now the public have a right to walk across them.  When one of them has an accident, or more likely loses a dog in a bog, will there be liability attaching to the farmer / landowner?  Defra tell us not - but sooner or later there will be a test case, no doubt.

When they were doing the designations, farmers could make representations as to why such and such a field should not be designated 'Open Access'.  I wasn't farming at that time but I think that one of the reasons you could give was that you needed that field as a bull field, where bulls may be kept without cows, or where dairy bulls may be at large.


I could get on my hobby horse again, and rant on  about people no longer being responsible for the consequences of making their own choices, or even knowing how to be responsible for making their own choices.  It's as though we want a society in which anything bad which happens is always someone else's fault and you can sue them for it.  When I holidayed in Hawaii I was taken aback that I wasn't allowed to trot or canter on a hack - clearly the owners were only happy to take responsibility for our safety at a walk.  Not why I hired a horse!  (Although the scenery was lovely from horseback.)  Don't want to live wrapped in cotton wool - too much like a padded cell for my taste...

[Backinwellies]

I remember this case and think the case rests on whether the bull is concidered beef (and thus OK by law to be there) or dairy and there fore shouldn't be on footpath.   Very sad for the family but also for the farmer.

[Marches Farmer]

Hmm, so a beef breed is OK?  The legislators have clearly never encountered the Limousin breed!

Trouble is that when footpaths began it was the quick way for the locals to get to the smithy, the market, the well ...  Because they were local they would have known about bulls (and rams, too, at tupping time) and not getting between a cow and her calf .  Now those footpaths are walked by people who might, once, have owned a hamster, and just don't think about the territorial instincts of an animal weighing over half a tonne.  We don't have a footpath on the farm but I once found two young teenagers with their dog scrambling around the 1 in 3, 40 ft drop into our waterfall, next to our pregnant ewes, under the impression they had the right to be there. 

[Copeson]

Hi we live just down the road from this farmer and it was a swiss bull and he was in the field with heifers so we have been told.

[lachlanandmarcus]

Hi we live just down the road from this farmer and it was a swiss bull and he was in the field with heifers so we have been told.

If that's the case then it will be an interesting court case - dairy bull should not have been out in a field with FP by law but definition of a dairy breed bull in the wording of the law appears to specify the breeds and that list doesn't include foreign dairy breeds.


I suspect that the baseline of no dairy breed in footpath field will prevail though, as even I knew that, and I don't own any cattle! Perhaps they may reduce the charge to a lesser one with the argument re the wording of the law however.


Very sad case for everyone involved, no winners whatever happens.

[bloomer]

for those of us who don't know cattle whats the difference between a dairy and a beef bull?


why would there be a distinction?

[doganjo]

for those of us who don't know cattle whats the difference between a dairy and a beef bull?


why would there be a distinction?

You beat me to it, David - I was just going to ask the same thing - are Dairy bulls more aggressive as a whole?

[SallyintNorth]

On the whole, yes, dairy bulls are more aggressive than beef bulls.  A lot of beef bulls are very steady - Aberdeen Angus, Red Devon, Hereford leap to mind - while some others are a bit more touchy - Limousin, Simmental, Charolais, for instance.  (Yes there is a correlation between country of origin and temperament - I always think I'd be p***ed off if I was bred for the Limousin region of France and was being made to live out in Cumbria!   ) 

Generally a beef bull with his cows and calves will take them to safety rather than confront a person - or dog - in the field with them.  And a bull running with stirks (steers) will be paternally in charge - I was once very grateful to a gentle Aberdeen Angus bull for rounding up and calming down a herd of boisterous bullocks who were 'playing' with our dogs out on an Exmoor moor...

I wonder whether one difference is that a beef bull's cows will generally have their calves with them, whereas the dairy calves will have been removed at a very young age?   

[lachlanandmarcus]

The dairy bulls are worse temperament because they have been bred for many many generations with one factor (genetic propensity to produce high yielding cows) focused on to the exclusion of all others eg temperament....


In addition as SITN says,they may not be kept in natural family setups.


Jerseys are reputed to be the worst but none of them is reliable. Which is one reason that most dairy farmers use AI, both for the genetics and to not have the risk to themselves and others.


I do think the overall risk of attacks has increased with the larger and wilder continental beef breeds becoming dominant though. But there are also other factors. Beef cattle used to be handled using dogs and stockmen, and be used to obeying their instructions. But nowadays it's more likely to be quadbikes and pickup trucks, so the beef cattle are getting less close handling from their keepers and are less biddable as a result.


It should be said tho that in terms of the risk from cows, while some of the continentals have a risk for being a bit nuts and wild (eg Limousin), certain native breeds can be very dodgy just after giving birth (Galloways have this reputation) so it is wise to take care with all breeds.


I have to cross cattle every time I hack the horse (I would never take a dog through) and I prefer if when the Angus are in the field rather than the Charolais as I do find them calmer and they are smaller!

[lachlanandmarcus]

More update on the legislation , apparently the Secretary of State can add breeds to the list specified in the Act so it MAY be that Brown Swiss bulls are on this supplementary list and therefore are specifically banned after all.


Farmers also saying on forums that dairy breed bulls poss have imbalance of hormones (hence why they produce such heavy milkers) and that they are normally raised by hand/bucket not on cow leading to a lack of natural fear of humans making them more dangerous.  Beef bulls if kept entire usually better as they are likely to be sold as a stock bull for either dairy or beef herd and so have to be shown to be manageable.