Author Topic: Turkey saddles?  (Read 4349 times)

Shropshirelass

  • Joined Jul 2012
  • South Shropshire
  • A country lass who loves it all!
Turkey saddles?
« on: May 21, 2013, 02:46:14 pm »
Does anybody use them? & if so are they good for any breeds in particular? It's just as most of you know I bought a Bourbon red stag & 2 hens & the 1 female died & the other got ate  >:( & I've just tracked down some more hens for him & after 2.5 days of running with them he has already mated 1  ;D but seemed a bit rough & the hen was a bit shocked & he is quite a big young stag, should I get a few more females? or is 2 enough - he has been without females for around 6-8weeks x

sh3ph3rd

  • Joined Apr 2013
  • Queensland, Australia
Re: Turkey saddles?
« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2013, 05:03:21 pm »
I've never used saddles but have considered getting them. I try to make sure they mate on level ground, and generally they mate within 30 minutes of being put in a cage together, if you're not freeranging them.

With mine, if he doesn't mate pretty much within 5 minutes and get off immediately thereafter, he's on the cull list, since in my experience that's a strong behavioural trait that leads to damaged females. Generally I just make sure the female has enough calcium so her skeleton holds up, and if the male's known to be clumsy I remain on hand to force him to get off if necessary. It has been, a few times. Some males you can just leave to it, no problems, they will be careful and listen to the female's opinion on it.

I'd cull any male who was too rough or incompetent; some toms know how to get on, do the job and get off quickly, others stand on the hen, crushing her for ages, and I don't tolerate that, just like I don't tolerate a rooster who regularly manages to spur-scratch the hens. It's inefficient and inexcusable.

Mating's something even brain damaged animals manage, if they can't even manage that properly, they're just food. Or pets. I'm not actually sure inexperience has anything much to do with it after the very first mating, because an adept male is always adept and a clumsy male seems to remain clumsy and it becomes a question of whether his genes are worth more than the lives of your females. He'd have to be awesomely special and rare. A good tom will be on and off in a jiffy. Some won't get off and 'air-mate' and the females generally learn to reject all advances from such males, so he'll end up culled anyway... Most people I know only breed immature males that are sexually capable but under adult size, then cull before full growth, but I think it's doing the species a disservice because young males just don't produce the best offspring.

I often wonder why toms get to such a disadvantageous size compared to the females. I think serious breeders need to possibly address this, and either up the size of the females or down the size of the males. It's likely the early human intervention in the species that caused the discrepancy, since in the wild, left long enough, it'd probably (no guarantee) breed itself out. The Aztecs had white turkeys, apparently, and many other races too.

Shropshirelass

  • Joined Jul 2012
  • South Shropshire
  • A country lass who loves it all!
Re: Turkey saddles?
« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2013, 05:21:11 pm »
Well with mine their free ranging & just around the 1year old mark now, he did get off quite quick approx after 5 mins - it just struck me as him being a little keen too mate as I thought they took a while to get used to one another & the females decided when to mate as far as I know the stag had never mated before certainly not with the last hens that were with him that I or the person who bred them saw. He's only mated with the lavender hen that I have seen today but I haven't been out there all day - will I see him being quite "Randy" mounting & mating them all the time from now on or is this just occasionally? Excuse the expression but its the best way to compare it to cockerels & drakes, whereas with my geese the oldest 2 are 8-10yrs old & produce loads every year, but I've only seen them mate twice & they are very private & secretive about mating.

I'll keep an eye on him I just don't want to harassed females - they all seem quite smitten but is 2 enough or should I get some more x

sh3ph3rd

  • Joined Apr 2013
  • Queensland, Australia
Re: Turkey saddles?
« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2013, 06:03:26 pm »
I wish my geese were quiet and private about mating! They make the most indecent noises and do it repeatedly in the walkway, with much ado, seriously.... Even when they mate down in the dam you don't have to be within line of sight to know what they're up to.

He sounds fine, especially for a first-timer. I don't think you really 'need' more females for him, because as you noted the females will sit and invite him when it's time, so the rest of the time he's 'on standby' unlike the majority of frankly oversexed roosters. They mostly aren't good fathers anymore because all they're doing is chasing the next hen, and most of the hens have lost the instinct to sit and invite when it's the right time, so multiple fruitless matings occur and the rooster gives a lot of 'empty serves' because he's all over the place. I think you'd only have a problem if you caged him separately as a rule, or if he doesn't recognize a brooding or laying female as not inviting him.

There isn't a reason to not get more females other than consideration of a few factors like your time and money spent on them, possible overpopulation, and of course my perennial problem with new females... The hens 'weep' if they are alone, but like to relentlessly bully other turkeys. Recently one of my new hens was killed by two of my first turkey hens. They smashed her so hard they broke her body, though she took a while to die, an they dented a steel water pot so it was half-flattened into a half-moon shape. Brutal things. Not a good strain.

 

HelenVF

  • Joined Apr 2012
Re: Turkey saddles?
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2013, 06:25:05 pm »
Our turkeys are free range and quite often go onto the road (at the end of a 1.5 mile single track road so very few cars).  I looked out the window one day to see my stag treading the hen....with an audience!  Some walkers who happened to be walking past, had stopped for a nosy to watch him lol.

Helen

sh3ph3rd

  • Joined Apr 2013
  • Queensland, Australia
Re: Turkey saddles?
« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2013, 06:35:03 pm »
lol... Probably laying bets as to whether or not he's got a penis. Some people find it quite hard to conceive of male animals that don't have penises, or male animals that have bizarre ones...  :D

Shropshirelass

  • Joined Jul 2012
  • South Shropshire
  • A country lass who loves it all!
Re: Turkey saddles?
« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2013, 07:05:37 pm »
Sorry whats not a good strain? do you mean a certain breed - unless I misread that bit. Well ideally I just want to breed a few Bourbon reds pure & also have around 20-30 birds to kill each year at christmas so are 2 enough, I will be hatching some in my incubator x

sh3ph3rd

  • Joined Apr 2013
  • Queensland, Australia
Re: Turkey saddles?
« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2013, 08:03:18 pm »
I was referring to my excessively violent turkeys being not a good strain. I don't blame the breed, only the breeder, which would be me if I kept breeding them, but I've changed the line.

I'd get at least one more hen if you want around 30 per year, really, because of the usually high mortality rates for turkeys from disease and predation. Or you could 'practice' this season with just two. Everything eats turkey! It's the triptophan, good for everything from hormonal imbalances (therefore depression) and also joints/cartilage and the nervous system. Even herbivores will have a go. And then they're also delicate and fluffy in the head, so to speak, turkeys are, mostly... Turkeys have the highest natural source of triptophan in their meat and should rightfully be considered walking feathered medicine. It's why they tend to be so 'emotional', easily either over-distressed or blissfully dopey. 

A chook baby is looking at the sky to see if there's a hawk; a turkey baby is looking at the sky because it's so high on its own triptophan levels that the clouds are all just so sparkly and beautiful....

Some seasons I've lost the majority of the clutch, some seasons I've kept every one. Lately I've been keeping them all. Learnt the hard way though. If you vaccinate or feed medicated feed they won't be anywhere near as tasty nor good for you. It makes a vast difference. To avoid coccidiosis, raw garlic banishes it with never a fatality, and also takes care of most diseases, viruses, and both internal and external parasites. Kelp's the best multivitamin and mineral source. To avoid tuberculosis, grow them for the first few weeks on hard boiled eggs with dandelion or raw onion; to cure blackhead, unhomogenized and unpasteurized (raw) cow's milk with the fat skimmed off the top and a flat tablespoon of honey mixed in, given once the animal's stopped eating, by which point they're usually lying down, the faeces are liquid yellow and green, and the disease has run its course. Anyway, that's what I do. Then I spit roast them, and know why I go to so much effort and expense.  ;D
« Last Edit: May 21, 2013, 08:06:21 pm by sh3ph3rd »

Shropshirelass

  • Joined Jul 2012
  • South Shropshire
  • A country lass who loves it all!
Re: Turkey saddles?
« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2013, 08:46:30 pm »
Right ok good to know & I'm going to worm them this or next week so with cocidiosis should I just put the raw garlic in with their feed every now & again to prevent it. Also with their version of TB can it be passed onto us & other livestock? As we have cattle & the herd has been clear for years & I have a lot of chest probs so don't really want ought.

It's just I know when TB testing both avaian & bovine tb is injected in small amounts to test their reactions but the avian form isn't transmissible - with the food reccomended should I feed to my young adults as well as growers & also doing this regularly? & dandilions can they eat the plants & leaves?

Also how do you find using broody hens to rear them? & also these will be caged for the 1st 8-12 weeks after hatching x

sh3ph3rd

  • Joined Apr 2013
  • Queensland, Australia
Re: Turkey saddles?
« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2013, 04:16:29 pm »
I can't speak for vaccinated or heavily medicated stock as that can prevent the natural formation of normal defenses against disease, but I would assume as adults your turkeys would be immune to coccidiosis. Mostly adult birds have been exposed and conquered it, though some weakly ones can still die of it if never properly immunized to it. Garlic's a natural immunizer. I would always give garlic as a first line of defense, for all ages, for many diseases and infections, I just give it raw or in granulated form, in their food or separate, however suits you.

I don't think you or other forms of livestock can catch a turkey's TB but diseases are adjusting to every modern treatment and changing genetically so who knows. Transgenic wonders occur.

With dandelions, they eat the leaves, it's a powerful liver detoxifier and support, and the liver is the main organ you'll find to be weakly in turkeys. That's what fails them under blackhead attack, and it plays a role in TB. Egg can be hard on the liver due to high sulphur content so raw onion, raw potato or raw dandelion is an important addition. Garlic's high in sulphur too but I let them eat it as much as they want, and I've never lost one to sulphur poisoning, as some people worry about. The egg just grows them well and the sulphur, balanced out by dandelion, will permeate their flesh and make it fairly impervious to parasites and diseases. I give garlic raw and finely minced to the newly hatched chicks as part of their first feed, and keep doing that for the first week at least, and also give it as a regular staple to birds of all ages and destinations; in fact if they're definitely going to be eaten by us I make sure they are well stocked on highly healthy feed, since that benefit transfers directly to us.

With the egg and dandelion, they want that mainly between the ages of roughly two weeks to eight weeks, or so, and they'll wean themselves off it when they're ready to move onto a more plant-based diet for their protein needs.

As for broody hens, it depends on the hen, really. In the case of turkeys, as well as chickens. (I'm not sure which species of hen you mean). If the mother bird, regardless of species, was allowed to raise the hen naturally and not overly distressed by adverse human interference, she'll likely do great. If she was raised separately she may need practice. I prefer to raise them either with a chicken sibling or under a chicken, because they tend to be less aggressively protective and better at foraging for insects, and the adopted chicken sibling helps wise the turkey bubs up, an it's good to foster cross-species tolerance. If you keep them in a cage for as long as you're planning, you may need to take precautions against the mother turkey trampling them, because they're mainly green-feeders and if used to free-ranging, they can be desperate to bring their bubs out to the greenery, and spend all day pacing up and down the mesh, heedlessly trampling babies. I make a leaning cage wall or put something in the way to prevent that, if I have to cage them, but it's best for their health to eat mainly raw fresh greenery, especially grass. Generally easiest to rear them under a chook hen, though the turkey hens may resent that. They'll know, sooner or later, that you are the one taking the eggs or bubs, and unless they're especially stupid they will identify that the chicken babies and turkey babies are different, and they will try to steal back their babies from a chicken hen, and get really distressed.

There'll be different diseases and different strains of the same diseases where you live, in another country, and the fact that most people use antibiotics means the diseases will be so much more powerful than if people had only used the natural fixes. In the UK, I believe, there is a particularly nasty strain of blackhead. With turkeys, you can expect to lose many, and hope for the best. Birds bred and born for generations reliant on artificial surrounds and feeds can become useless in a natural surrounding, intolerant. If you've got cage-breds and you transition them to outdoors, expect a bit of a trial by fire. Anything your chooks are carrying that never even made them sick for a day will have a go at your turkeys. They take a few generations of hard work to get tougher if bought from a more commercial type of situation. Best wishes. Sorry for my usual overlong reply.

 

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