So for a terminal sire the animal should be a good size and shape, and I'm sorry Steve but a poorly finished animal that has not had sufficient food to show its potential is not going to impress anybody.
Yes, but this food should consist of the same food that I am going to feed its progeny - ie grass. This is why I buy off-farm.
If the animal is going to be your flock ram you want to see that it is capable of siring lambs that will fetch a good price in market. You don't want to just guess that its genetics are right - you want to see it for yourself. Else why would you choose one ram over the one in the pen next door, or on the next farm?
For a maternal breed, you are more concerned about its udder, its milkiness and its ability to produce twins. This, I presume Steve, is why you have chosen Lleyns in your breeding. And I don't believe anyone would fault you there.
Yes, I but maternal rams to breed replacements, using maternal ebvs as a tool. I buy terminal sire rams to produce fat lambs, using terminal EBVs as a tool.
But how can you spout off about EBVs (estimated breeding value) when you have cross bred ewes and use crossbred (SuffTex) rams? It is perfectly obvious that showing is entirely irrelevant to your system of production. I am afraid you do not count as a ram buyer in the accepted sense of the word.
I've lost you here - both maternal and terminal breeders use ebvs. I chose SufTexs because I like a bit of hybrid vigour, but I could have equally bought either a Suffolk or Texel off the same breeder. I also looked at Meatlinc and Charrolais before deciding. Signet uses EBVs to compare across breeds, which is why they are a useful index. See this promotional chart from the meatlinc breed website here:
I don't know why I don't count as a ram buyer to you. I buy rams. Most keepers of maternal flocks buy rams and are usually who the ram breeders target. I know I don't have many ewes compared to most sheep farmers, maybe thats why - I have 300 commercial ewes, how many would I need to be a ram buyer in the 'true sense of the word'? 500? 1000?
Most of the terminal breed societies are coming on-side to EBVS because the way people are buying rams is changing - the show ring has let down so many producers with rams that melt or whos progeny are slow to grow because their genetic potential had been masked by the sires being fed on concentrates.
Here are a few links:
http://www.meatlinc.co.uk/buying-rams/http://www.charollaissheep.com/sire_ref_scheme.htmhttp://www.texel.co.uk/thebreed/prt_index_updates.phphttp://www.easyrams.co.uk/Now I am not knocking your system. It clearly works for you. But that does not make you an expert on the way Buffy chooses to produce her sheep. So it would seem unfair to condemn anyone who wishes to show their animals when you don't really seem to understand what it's all about.
I notice in an earlier post you mentioned Steve that you had an interest in genetics. (Forgive me Buffy for veeering slightly from your question.) So you know that the genetics of an animal are what it passes on to its offspring. The breeder will feed up an animal so that its genetics and potential are obvious to the potential buyer, like polishing a car before you sell it. The fact that you don't like to see an animal that has been fed extra, in no way affects its genetic ability to produce good lambs nor does it mean that you cannot fatten these lambs entirely on grass.
I didn't condemn anyone for wanting to show - I only stated that it was a fun hobby and perhaps if her ewes had had a hard time in 2012, 2013 would not be the best time to bring lambing forward. I was then told in no uncertain terms that unlike almost everyone elses sheep I know (and I live in an area not badly affected by the weather in 2012) because her sheep had plenty of grass and sheds concs etc etc and also that "showing was an integral part of sheep farming", which I disagree with, and I think I stated pretty concisley why that was.
Steve that you had an interest in genetics. (Forgive me Buffy for veeering slightly from your question.) So you know that the genetics of an animal are what it passes on to its offspring. The breeder will feed up an animal so that its genetics and potential are obvious to the potential buyer, like polishing a car before you sell it. The fact that you don't like to see an animal that has been fed extra, in no way affects its genetic ability to produce good lambs nor does it mean that you cannot fatten these lambs entirely on grass.
How on earth can you possibly say that - if the animal itself hasn't been fed on grass only then you have no idea how its genetics will perform when it (or its offspring) are only fed grass - what happens is in effect you are masking the effects of those genetics. A ram that grows well on concs may not grow well on grass and vice versa, and before I part with x hundred quid, I want to be damn sure that the animal fits my system. And, if your claim was the case then buyers wouldn't be looking to buy off farm as many are now choosing to do - they would simply continue to buy from the big breed auctions etc.
And that is where we come back to EBVs. Naturally, the flaw in ebvs is that you have no idea how the rams were fed to achieve the figures on the ebv sheet. This is why you have to visit the farm.
On a wider note - as the population of the world increases, we have more and more mouths to feed with less and less inputs available, so it makes sense to work towards eliminating concentrate feeding wherever possible. Or, in slightly more selfish terms - buying concentrates eats into your margin, and the prices are set to increase and to continue to do so. If farmers cannot make a suitable margin, then they will cease to be able to make a living.
Why do I care about all of this, and why am I bothering on a 'smallholder' forum?
Firstly - I consider a 300 ewe flock to be pretty small, so therefore I consider myself to be a smallholder of sorts, and I see no reason why I should not run my flock along commercial lines and, more importantly, why doing so should not make me money. I can't afford for it not to.
Secondly, there are a lot of small flocks producing terminal sires out there and given that me (and people like me, although perhaps with more sheep) are your customers, it makes sense to illustrate what your customers are actually looking for.
