[Mammyshaz]

Well here's my two pennysworth 

He has lived a different life with different rules for a year so it is going to take months to bring him anywhere near  your other dog's soundness.
I'd be inclined to start from scratch as you would a new puppy ( as has been said ) for everything, not just toilet training. Basic commands constantly such as sit, down etc just like a puppy. And praise, praise, praise to bring out some confidence.
It's hard but try to ignore toileting or unwanted behaviour  and keep those SIT,  DOWN etc so lots of your interaction is praise and reward. You are keeping it simple at first so he has little pressure.

Keep his cage for as long as possible. It will be his safety net and help him relax as time goes on.
Also get a DAP plugin to help relax him at home. This may also help with the toilet problem. To me it doesnt sound medical ( but there is always a small chance ). He just sounds confused in his exchange from previous life to his new one.

Just keep at it. Time will erase his past and he will become the perfect companion. You are doing fine,continue with the routine. He needs it at this stage. Patience will pay off, I promise   

[doganjo]

Doganjo, I do not agree, like some people are nervy so are some dogs, highly strug high energy dogs are born that way.  Rohan is highly strung and no had anything happened to her, she had and still has a nice calm life......I can compare her to other people who also have highly strung dogs and quiet houses and then the reverse!!!
I do agree on the clicker training though....I am in contact with most of the pups we had in the same litter, some are like Rohan some are more laid back, our black lab is also nervy, she hates any one to shout but then again, we never have to shout at her!!

Read what I said -  "Very few labs are born nervous."   It is a working breed. Labs are not high energy compared to what I have, believe me!
Working labs are expected to sit at their masters side for fairly long periods of time awaiting commands to retrieve - on a driven shoot a lab is a peg dog and may have to sit for an hour or more, perhaps longer till the birds are brought in by the beaters. Smaller shoots may differ obviously but a nervous dog of any breed wouldn't and shouldn't be on a shoot. They would be a hazard.

[happygolucky]

Mammyshaz, thats my thoughts too, the pen/cage etc is his cave and his place of security bless him, he will come round and to me it sounds like you are doing it all properly, it will just take some time.....would love to see a photo!!!  and an update!!
Doganjo, dispite Rohan being nervy, she will sit with me for hours when out training or on a shoot, in fact, when out with her she barely goes for a wee unless I tell her to go! As for Rhum, she only leaves my side to hunt for something...usualy parts of Deer....both so different but both good gun dogs, ROhan has no fear when out neither does her mum......just in her genetics

[melholly]

Thank you everyone for taking such time to reply. I've always kept labs - mix of pup/rehouse and working/show line but Chesters behaviour is just odd. He definitely doesn't like being stroked/patted around the rib cage area and often stands 'hunched up' When neutered I did raise this with the vet but she didn't seem overly concerned. However, I will think ill get him checked over. His parentage is all over the shop with show/working lines and I do know he was the runt...


However, I see great potential in him. He's built a relationship with Horsley, our older lab already and they often snuggle up together. He's fabulous with our 5 year old and isn't a mad lab at all. He doesn't drool for one! He heels beautifully, retrieves, sits, stays (all with puppy mischievous behaviour at times mind!) but I felt was a good all round family dog. It's just this untrustworthy soiling behaviour. I know the 50% fail rate I have with the come here command will take time and trust and loyalty. He's undergone huge change, diet change and even a name change from Cabury to Chester!


Ill try the cage door open for a bit, the doggy flap is a no go - PVC door and Horsley would be gone for days rabbiting on that basis!! Clicker sounds interesting. He does come to me or a reward and sometimes it's a nibble, other times a ball, or an ear scratch. I try to show that on lead has expectation but when off lead with a command of ' off u go fella'  he can play.


Yes I'll definitely get the ok from the vets and then try some recommended approaches. Maybe 3 months was too ambitious to expect the 'perfect' dog. We housed Horsley at 9months though, changed his name etc and got everything first time of asking (other than going missing on rabbit expeditions at midnight leaving me bleating out threats of "fine, ignore me. Stay out all night then." Lol)


Mx

[sabrina]

Why change his name, that in itself must be confusing. I had our German Shepherds spayed. One was fine the other Tanya had trouble with her water works and would often wet herself if I did not hear her ask out. It has been my experience since having Rascal who has been attacked by labs that the breed has changed in some cases. More nervous, diet problems for a start. Our vet has treated a few dogs that have been attacked by labs something that never used to happen as they were know as such friendly dogs. Down to bad breeding again no doubt.

[in the hills]

Melholly - you obviously have experience with dogs and sure you will get there in the end, as he seems to be basically a good lad. Was he kept in his cage a lot where he was before? ...... not just at night but in the day? Could he feel that the cage is the "house" if you like and so once let out, he is free to empty himself? Just a thought. 


Doganjo - I think it may depend on your definition of"nervy". Maybe "over-sensitive" is a better description of SOME working labs. Top lines are bred very specifically for a certain job and it is believed that such breeding for a biddable nature has led to some individuals being if you like almost too biddable ..... "sensitive", "nervy",  ..... too anxious to please. You are right they are not as "high energy" as some breeds but it doesn't necessarily follow that they are not sensitive souls. My Flattie, true to type for his breed, is more high energy than a working lab but equally not as sensitive. If you watched the working gundog display at Crufts, it was said that you could train/handle 3 working labs, compared to 2 Goldies, compared to 1 Flattie. Labs., in general, are more "push button". They are very biddable and hence easier to train. They are easier to train because they are more sensitive.


My father has 2 working labs. at the moment. Top lines and super workers. Hard on game. If you ask him about their temperaments as pets/house dogs, he will tell you they are not the best. How you describe them would depend on your interpretation of their behaviour - "nervy" maybe. He has had others with very sound temperaments, all treated the same way. My neighbour has a working lab. A beautiful lad, with a super temperament but again a "sensitive" dog.


Just my opinion. However, if one knows top handlers of working labs, then you will find it discussed quite openly and even assumptions made as to which lines help to pass on these "sensitivities".


I will agree to disagree, though. 

[happygolucky]

in the hills, my sensitive bitch is so keen to please, as is her mother, her father is the exact same, she loves a fuss but only when she feels safe, otherwise she is very cautious, in the field she is very keen and dives into heavy cover and never scared if anything..only humans and other dogs

[doganjo]

Doganjo - I think it may depend on your definition of"nervy". Maybe "over-sensitive" is a better description of SOME working labs. Top lines are bred very specifically for a certain job and it is believed that such breeding for a biddable nature has led to some individuals being if you like almost too biddable ..... "sensitive", "nervy",  ..... too anxious to please. You are right they are not as "high energy" as some breeds but it doesn't necessarily follow that they are not sensitive souls. My Flattie, true to type for his breed, is more high energy than a working lab but equally not as sensitive. If you watched the working gundog display at Crufts, it was said that you could train/handle 3 working labs, compared to 2 Goldies, compared to 1 Flattie. Labs., in general, are more "push button". They are very biddable and hence easier to train. They are easier to train because they are more sensitive.


My father has 2 working labs. at the moment. Top lines and super workers. Hard on game. If you ask him about their temperaments as pets/house dogs, he will tell you they are not the best. How you describe them would depend on your interpretation of their behaviour - "nervy" maybe. He has had others with very sound temperaments, all treated the same way. My neighbour has a working lab. A beautiful lad, with a super temperament but again a "sensitive" dog.

Just my opinion. However, if one knows top handlers of working labs, then you will find it discussed quite openly and even assumptions made as to which lines help to pass on these "sensitivities".

I will agree to disagree, though. 

You could be right about interpretation, ITH.  My own opinion is that most puppies in a  litter, whether show or work bred are not going into that particular environment except in the top echelons (Highest ranking Field Trial Winners or Show Champions), so they should never be nervy, and nervy dogs should never be bred from. 
Sensitivity is a different thing altogether.  I like a sensitive bitch for HPR work, but prefer a bold dog.  Allez is both thankfully 

Working Labs have to sit still in the field for fairly long periods while a drive is coming to them, so they should be steady, but there's no reason why they can't be sensitive, and that is probably an advantage as you say.  But a nervy lab is a bad thing.  I've seen them in field trials, and they rarely win top prizes. My breed is the hunter variety so need to be on their toes.  Horses for courses as they say.

[melholly]

Inthehills,


You set me thinking. He WAS kept in his cage a lot in his last home - they had him at the very end of the house away from family life (4 kids...) He also used to bark on demand to be let out. So after listening to everyones thoughts I think he is 'just' settling in to change and unfortunately most dogs might display traits of chewing or crazy behaviour, mine, at the mo, can't hold his own - literally! I always know there's trouble as our other lab goes off and hides as if to say 'I'm having nothing to do with this!'


So yes, possibly cage to him his 'home' and anything outside of that is 'outdoors.' I wonder what my best tactic with that will be! As it happens, I take it as a good sign (security) that he chooses at night to curl on his boot room bed (doors open, access to house and life) and not his cage or pestering in the lounge. I've been putting him in his cage at bedtime though to avoid any 'accidents' and therefore knocking his confidence. However, now I wonder if it's counter productive?!


Time, time and more time methinks! No accidents since date of post though! (probably as were lambing and out the house every blinking 2 minutes!)


Mx

[happygolucky]

    

[in the hills]

No wonder he barked to be let out. In my opinion, a young lab. would be really unhappy if he were caged away from family life for long periods of time.    Did he have another dog for company? Thinking that your poor chap has maybe missed out on his early education for whatever reason and maybe scolded too much. Maybe he hasn't known much more than that cage. You don't know when you take an older dog.


We all do things differently, but if he were mine, he would only be caged at night. Does he chew or destroy things? If not, then I would barely use a cage. I would have him in the same room as me for as much of the time as possible. If he wasn't distressed about it, I would want him in the lounge in the evenings as well. And then I would treat him like an eight week old pup. When he was awake, outside every 20 minutes or so. Teach him a word to mean empty yourself. Loads of praise. If he had an accident in the house I would not make too much of it. Maybe a quiet and unemotional "no" if caught actually in the act and then straight outside. I would give as few commands to the dog as possible for a few months. Just loads of quiet love and build up to some excited playing as you would with a tiny pup.         


If he chooses to lie in his crate for security, I would move it to the room I was in whenever possible (not always easy, I know) and then as with a pup, pop him outside everytime he woke or got out of it.


I would get a vet to check his urine though. We have a pup at the moment that is suffering from water infections. She can't hold herself when the infection flares up and may need further tests if the infection doesn't clear this time. The vet mentioned underlying reasons such as diabetes, problems with not correctly developed water works etc. We can tell when she has an infection as she is generally quiet and her toilet pattern changes. Probably not the case for your dog because you don't mention anything like this but worth checking so that you know that it is a behaviour and not medical problem.


They are clever dogs .... sure he will get it.

[colliewobbles]

^^^^^^ this - brilliant answer 'in the hills'   

[Old Shep]

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Have you come across Tellington touch techniques?  I think it would greatly help with your new dog.

[melholly]

Hello everyone,


So humbled by all your advice on this I felt I had to bring you all up to date in case you haven't seen my other post 'Canine EPI.' This was what Chester was diagnosed with after a lot of tests and the complete drop off of weight.


He didn't respond to Lypex (synthetic enzyme) and suffered kidney failure. He was a very poorly boy so we had to have him put to sleep at 14months old.


His previous owners were first time dog owners and although it is by no means their fault I think they presumed his illness was 'behavioural' and hence why we bought him... It's understandable. Why would you think your KC regged pup could or would be ill? I have contacted them and recommended they take it up with the breeder.


Thank you for helping out everyone. It prompted me to take him the vets.


Mx

[happygolucky]

So sad, poor dog,  well at least he is at peace, thanks for the update. KC or  no KC, a pup can still carry an illness or disability, unfortunately so can us humans, we tend to forget  how many babies are born with problems to healthy parents!!!
 
We have a litter of chocolate labs due soon, the parents are both health tested and fingers crossed all the pups will  be strong and healthy but then who knows?