[Remy]

Thanks for all the info.  What a lot to take in!  Sheep aren't for the faint hearted, it seems 


As for the PM, they were preliminary findings and there may be more information.  I haven't got a copy of the report myself so will get one from the vet when all the info has come in.


Nearly all my losses have been Gotlands, and those that weren't were young, with the exception of a 3 year old Herdwick, which died in the same field as the Gotland ram early last year.  However, the PM with her did not show excessive worms!  I have been wondering whether the extreme wet weather has led to trace element and mineral deficiency in my soil and that the Gotlands have been particularly affected, leading to poor immune systems which have allowed the worms to take hold.  Don't know if it works that way but it's just something I've been thinking about.


None of my Gotland babies have done very well, whereas my crosses are a good weight.

[Foobar]

I was about to suggest that you download the Better Returns Programme parasite control guide from here because it shows you all the meds, which class they are in, what parasites they affect and what stages (egg, larvae, adult, etc) - absolutely brilliant resource. 

However, the doc at the end of the link no longer contains those tables - in fact, it's now mostly about external parasites - and I have been unable to find the tables elsewhere.  I have emailed the BRP team to ask for their help, but I suspect they've had to withdraw the info as so many farms now have worms and flukes resistant to some of the meds listed. 

I think the table you are referring to has been moved into here:
http://www.eblex.org.uk/documents/content/returns/brp_b_brpbeefandsheepparasitecontrolguide2012.pdf

[SallyintNorth]

That's the very one, foobar - it wasn't there last night so the BRP folks must've responded like lightening to my email.  Yes, just checked, they emailed me at 10:14am to tell me to find it right there. 

  you BRP folks, if you're watching 

[SteveHants]

I suspect that there could be a little bit more than wormer resistance alone going on (if it is)  as older sheep should have a reasonable resistance to worms ( not wormer resistance) and should not be going down with such heavy worm burdens,  as losses sadly also occured last winter.   Most of the guidance for worming applies mainly to young lambs and ewes post partuition whose resistance to worms is lowered following giving birth and during heavy lactation. 
We have a small number of older sheep that are not breeding and they don't get wormed at all, despite grazing land that has carried young lambs that season etc, older sheep should have reasonable resistance unless some other problem is compromising their immune systems which would lower their resistance to worms and allow them to build up very severe worm burdens. The 2nd document that Sally attaches states "Mature, fit and healthy sheep have a good immunity to most species of worms so the need to treat adult sheep is limited"   

I couldn't say whether there was wormer resistance, just that the worms have kept on hatching and the sheep may well have been clear after worming in Oct - but how many frosts have we had since then?


6500 is beyond the realms of natural resistance I think, you would expect full grown ewes to be looking pretty unwell on 3000 (depending on species). It has been such a wet and warm year, conditions are ideal for worms.

[Blacksheep]

"I couldn't say whether there was wormer resistance, just that the worms have kept on hatching and the sheep may well have been clear after worming in Oct - but how many frosts have we had since then?


6500 is beyond the realms of natural resistance I think, you would expect full grown ewes to be looking pretty unwell on 3000 (depending on species). It has been such a wet and warm year, conditions are ideal for worms."


Yes difficult to understand how they could be so high without showing effects for a while beforehand whilst the level of worms was increasing.  Resistance and resilience to worms are different things, resistance I believe to mean that the sheep have immunity to the worms which prevents the levels of worms building up in their guts, however resilience to worms is very different in that the worms levels can build up to a high level in the sheep and they are able to cope with a high level of worms, rather than have immunity to prevent a high worm burden developing.     If a sheep has a good resistance/immunity then they should cope with a higher worm burden on the pasture and take longer to succumb if they actually do with an exceptionally high level.  If they are resilient I guess they can tolerate to a certain level but I assume when a critical build up of worms is reached they would then succumb.       Hoping I have got this right, it was a little time since it was explained to me, I understand there was debate on which trait to be selecting for in sheep as wormers become less effective, think probably resistance rather than resilience would be better.

Good that they are continuing with the pm after finding the high parasite burden, when I spoke to a vet the VLA, they explained that they did pms in stages, and would stop once they found the cause, this was 2 or 3 years ago though and I think it was to limit the costs incurred. 

[kanisha]

Remy have you had a worm count done on the sheep you currently have since having the PM result?

Just curious to know if the worm count is reflected in the living sheep.

[Remy]

Remy have you had a worm count done on the sheep you currently have since having the PM result?

Just curious to know if the worm count is reflected in the living sheep.

I haven't yet, there are so many things to think about and that have been suggested to me I need to form a plan!  Soil analysis, supplements, worming, vaccination, worm counts - but also have to think about budget as I've had huge financial losses not to mention vets and PM fees and don't have a never ending supply of money!


At the mo I have vaccinated all of them and wormed who I consider to be the vulnerable ones.  I have 32 sheep in total so would I have to do a worm count on all of them?  What would the cost be?

[kanisha]

Hi Remy I'm not the person to ask I couldn't tell you the cost and I am always confused as to the value of worm counts as I'm variously told they will and / may not show a worm problem. I was just curious to know if you had had one done . it might answer the question as to whether there is a general worm problem or if it is more breed specific. With a worm count that high I would suspect there is something else affecting the immunity of the sheep ( Just  my thoughts)

[Blacksheep]

If you google famacha system you should be able to find colour guides for using the mucous membrane colour of the eyelids to do a quick self check on your sheep, this looks for anaemia which would be a guide to whether there is a heavy worm burden. Would save some costs on fec tests or maybe help identify the sheep to have tests done on.

[SteveHants]

Remy have you had a worm count done on the sheep you currently have since having the PM result?

Just curious to know if the worm count is reflected in the living sheep.

I haven't yet, there are so many things to think about and that have been suggested to me I need to form a plan!  Soil analysis, supplements, worming, vaccination, worm counts - but also have to think about budget as I've had huge financial losses not to mention vets and PM fees and don't have a never ending supply of money!


At the mo I have vaccinated all of them and wormed who I consider to be the vulnerable ones.  I have 32 sheep in total so would I have to do a worm count on all of them?  What would the cost be?

Worm count the flock as a whole - should be 5-10 samples, individually bagged for the vet to build a general picture, should cost £4-6.


If I were you, Id give them all ivermectin drench - oramec is about £20/l and then worm count again after. if you can bear to wait for the samples to be analysed before you drench then do - my vet will give you a fec result in the afternoon if you bring samples pre 11am. Worm count again 2 weeks post worming.


Having said that, if I had a ewe with a count of 6500, Id probably panic and drench them all asap.

[SallyintNorth]

As SteveHants says, this year has been such an awful year for livestock, all normal rules of thumb are suspended.

We had lungworm reported (by the abattoir) in our lambs in August; normally lungworm isn't an issue, they shake them off, but this horrible wet cold year, the lungworm were getting a grip and causing poorer performance.  We also had flukey livers reported in 90% of our lambs in August.

We normally worm our adult ewes once a year, if that.  This horrible wet cold year we have been worming as we fluke, and fluking religiously every 6-8 weeks all through since late summer - usually we fluke as they go to the tup (usually Oct), when he comes out, and pre-lambing.  I don't want to tempt fate, but we are hearing about big losses from our neighbours, and our losses this winter so far have been low - given the horrible wet cold year.  So we think the robust defence against worms and fluke throughout the summer and winter is vindicated.

We're scanning our earlies on Monday.  We've been hearing about a lot of empty ewes about... 

[ScotsGirl]

Does your vet charge a flat rate of £4-6 plus vat or a processing charge? Mine charges about £11/12 plus vat so doing regularly gets a bit expensive. Maybe I should start trying to haggle with them!

[SteveHants]

My vet charges £6 + VAT (I'm VAT registered, so I think of it as being £6.) My last vets were cheaper.


Since you are closeish to me, the vet concerned is Endells in Salisbury - they are very good.

[shep53]

Don't know about GOTLANDS but certainly different breeds and individual sheep can have high or low tolerance to worms and can be selected for. And yes just as in people if the sheep is not 100% for any reason then immune system is in trouble and since you say your x breds are fine, then maybe a blood test on a couple of gotlands to check mineral levels

[Remy]

We're scanning our earlies on Monday.  We've been hearing about a lot of empty ewes about... 

I'm not too optimistic about my lamb count this spring, I'll be interested to see who is and isn't in lamb    - it's another thing I'm concerned with re. the Gotlands, if those ARE in lamb that will be an extra demand on their system.


I have been using Fasimec Duo which is benzimidazole wormer plus a flukicide.  Three of the Gotland babies did have scours which have cleared up since drenching so hopefully that's a good sign - for now!  Apparently over 80% of sheep farms in Wales have resistance to benzimidazole so I will change back to invermectin for my next wormer.


Re. the sampling - I just take 5 or so random samples from the whole flock of 32?