[bluejules]

Hello there - just joined the forum and decided to jump in with both feet straight away with a complicated post on a topic that's driving me to distraction.

We started to rent a nine-acre smallholding from our neighbour on 10th October. We've got a CPH number and we've registered it as a business. The land is mostly upland grazing, it isn't in a conservation area of anything like that. There's a barn on the land with water and electricity and the place was previously run as a smallholding before my neighbour bought it earlier this year. The previous occupant/smallholder lived in a bungalow which has now been split from the land and is being rented out separately, so there is no residential property on the site of the smallholding.

We've decided we'd like to build the business up and we've done a bit of local market research. We've got a few projects on the go and everything seems to be going well. Although we don't live very far away, not living on site is now starting to be a problem - my other half is full time on the smallholding and he's spending most of his time there, and we've got serious concerns about security and the need to be there to provide round the clock care for the animals.

So we started to look into the possibility of a temporary dwelling on the site. Well, what a nightmare. We've been plunged into the world of PPS7, the national planning policy framework, business plans, function tests...we're now at a stage where we have our business plan and site plans and we're going to drop in and see the local planning authority. But we're receiving so much conflicting advice it's incredible.

For instance, I've got some people (including planning consultants) saying that there's a reasonable chance given that PPS7 is now obsolete and strictly speaking the planners don't have to apply the finance test. However, others are claiming that most planners are still applying PPS7, not that this would necessarily be an obstacle.

I made the mistake of putting something on a horsey forum I'm a member of and I'm now left feeling totally deflated. I've more or less been told that we don't have a chance, and that if I mention we've got horses the whole thing will be automatically blocked - this is totally the opposite of what one planning consultant said (namely that horses DO count now, whereas at one time they didn't - infact, he advised me to include liveries in the business plan!)

Even the planners themselves don't seem to have an agreed view on smallholdings and agricultural dwellings. The log cabin people are really targeting smallholders so someone MUST be getting permission somewhere; according to the horsey forum, no-one gets permission to build anything on agricultural land, ever.

Things that might be in our favour (or so we've been told) - one of us is full time; the land has previously been run as a smallholding but no longer has the dwelling that was attached to it; there's already an agricultural building on site with services to it; the site we're hoping to build on is currently rubble and not being used for anything; the dwelling will not be visible to anyone other than the farm on the top of the moor above us.

If anyone can offer any advice to stop my mind spinning I would be eternally grateful!

[Fowgill Farm]

Lots of others will be along soon but from experience don't mention the horses they seem to put up an instant barrier with planners, livery means traffic means more council maintenance of roads etc you get the picture!? Play on the smallholding aspect lambs, goats,pigs, chucks that need attention 365 days of the year twice a day.
Given there was already a dwelling there previously and it was used as a smallholding you should be in with a chance, do you have kids that could go to a local school and swell numbers thats always a good card in areas of dwindling school populations,
best of luck. MAndy

[SallyintNorth]

Firstly, I would check the planning office for any details relating to the seperation of the bungalow that was sold away from the land.  There may have had to be some planning permission (change of use, or something) at the time, and there may have been some stipulations made about not granting pp for another dwelling in respect of the same land.  If so, you could save yourself a fortune by looking that up now.

The people with the real track record in helping genuine people set up home on their smallholding are Chapter 7.  (No, not the American one  )   There's lots of good stuff available through their website - they know what they're doing and they offer advice for free.  (Start off by reading some of their publications, of course.)

[bluejules]

Thanks Mandy - the horses thing is really interesting as a few consultants have told me that the tide is changing with horses now and the previous owner, apart from keeping sheep and pigs, actually ran a pony stud on the site. If they visit the site they will see the horses so there's not much mileage in me trying to avoid it, but in the business plan I've really pushed the high quality produce side of things.
We've been advised to put four liveries into the business plan, but two of these are actually our horses (with funds being provided from our other income) which is apparently OK?
The lane up to the farm is unadopted an it's actually in a bit of a mess so we'll need to sort that out ourselves. The council are definitely not interested.
All kids grown up I'm afraid so unfortunately I can't go down that route!

[bluejules]

Thanks Sally, will look at that.

The bungalow and land were sold as separate lots but bought by the same person (our neighbour). He is renting them out as separate things. I don't think there's any stipulation of the type you mention as he said even before he bought it that he would support a tenant getting planning permission for a temporary dwelling. Not having any accommodation there would seriously restrict the usefulness of the land as we're finding it hard enough to get up there all the time and we don't live very far away. I'll go and see my neighbour today and see what he knows.

[lachlanandmarcus]

stud farms are treated differently from general leisure horse keeping in planning terms so that might explain the case you mention. However if you do benefit from getting planning cos of the stud there will generally be a restriction put on the property/land to restrict it to only being a stud.
The difficulty is really, if what you propose to do were freely possible ie get PP for a house on the basis of a few acres of land (which unless specialist is unlikely to really be economic or really require 24 hour on site presence) , then tens or hundreds of thousands would do it - would that be a good thing, Im not sure it would for the countryside.
I would look to try to rent the bungalow (which after all was part of the holding previously) or find a smallholding where there is already a residential element.

[Fowgill Farm]

the horses thing is really interesting as a few consultants have told me that the tide is changing with horses now
 
All kids grown up I'm afraid so unfortunately I can't go down that route!

a lot depends where you are in the country........no kids here either but do know a few who have used that one quite successfully.
mandy

[bluejules]

Previous owner did have liveries too  - most of the business revolved around the liveries. I can't understand why I've been advised that liveries is the way to go (and this is by a firm of consultants who specialise in business plans for this sort of venture).

Moving into the bungalow is absolutely not an option as my daughter lives there with her partner and two young children!

I've also been told that the financial test is no longer mandatory since PPS7 was done away with. As 60% of families on small farms apparently benefit from income earned outside the smallholding business, I don't see why they should put so much emphasis on this providing the business is definitely operating as a smallholding and the whole thing is not being used as a back door to putting executive housing up with a view to selling at a profit.

I actually think that we might give up completely very soon as we can't carry on as we are. We really do need to be up there to make this thing work and if no-one is going to consider the need for that then we may as well throw in the towel now.

[Fowgill Farm]

Just realised you are RENTING the land and daughter RENTS the nearby bungalow, think carefully before getting anything permanent done, there are lots of posts on TAS regarding landlords and hassle and changes, whatever you do will benefit your landlord in the long term NOT you and he can give you notice to get out when he pleases!
Tread carefully.
Mandy

[colliewoman]

Moving into the bungalow is absolutely not an option as my daughter lives there with her partner and two young children!

Look into putting up a static caravan as an extra bedroom for the bungalow. So long as you eat at least one meal a day in the bungalow I believe this is then lawful WITHOUT any planning permission.
No one is going to come check that you are having your brekky there.


Obviously make sure your daughter and family don't object!

[bluejules]

The agreement is to buy the land as soon as possible but we'll only do this if we can get PP.
We have pretty watertight legal agreements re. the renting that protect both them and us, so I'm not too worried about that. The reason we did this is that they are long standing friends of ours and neither of us wanted to be in the awkward position of jeopordising the friendship because of a disagreement about the land.

The bungalow was purchased by the same people but was financed by a completely different means so nothing to do with the smallholding at all. Daughter has always lived in rented property and prefers to rent rather than buy, and as I have lost thousands and thousands of pounds over the past ten years through negative equity, property market crashes etc etc I think she has a good point.
Would still like to buy the smallholding and friend/landlord is very keen to sell it to us, but if we can't get PP then it's a no-go.

[bluejules]

The bungalow is now on a completely separate piece of land that is nothing to do with the smallholding, so even if there was room for a caravan (which there isn't!) I don't think it would work. It's hard to explain without pictures/diagrams, but we would actually be looking to build the timber dwelling behind the barn and it wouldn't even be visible from the bungalow.
I don't really want to live in a static caravan full time, apart from anything else I don't think we'd have space for me to carry out my 'normal' business... the log cabin idea seems absolutely ideal but I'm beginning to feel increasingly hopeless about the whole thing. For every person who says it's a possibility there are two that say we haven't a chance. I think we'll probably sell the sheep and goats, give up the land and move our horses back down here. It's a pity as there is definitely a market for the stuff we wanted to produce. But we can't carry on for ever going up and down to the place, it's just impractical.

[Fleecewife]

Until you actually apply for Planning Permission you can't know if you will get it.  Pre-guessing the result is surely non-productive.   The place sounds ideal for you and as you have animals there already it would be a shame to get rid of them before you know if that is going to be necessary.
Getting permissions and then building are some of the most stressful parts of life - it never goes smoothly and all you can do is keep looking towards once it's all finished.
Don't give up without a fight 

[doganjo]

When I bought my conservator the suppliers go t PP for me. Do log cabin people not do the same?

[bluejules]

Thank you Fleecewife, this is a bit of a lifeline, I'm feeling very down about it at the moment to be honest.

I can see that the rules are there to stop the development of executive housing and no-one could be more in agreement with that principle than me. But this is a genuine stab at rural enterprise. There is very little local honey around here, or dairy goat products, and shops are being continuously asked for them. We are still being asked if we have any geese for Christmas, we could have easily sold 20 without any advertising at all!

But going up and down all the time is really impractical. And while I'm working long hours to keep this house going, it will seriously limit the amount we can invest into our smallholding business.