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Author Topic: Sickening in North West!  (Read 9411 times)

jaykay

  • Joined Aug 2012
  • Cumbria/N Yorks border
Re: Sickening in North West!
« Reply #30 on: November 16, 2012, 08:01:42 pm »
That's it, that's what I meant  :thumbsup:

SteveHants

  • Joined Aug 2011
Re: Sickening in North West!
« Reply #31 on: November 16, 2012, 08:55:22 pm »
Quote
therefore some abbatoirs must be non-stun
Well - there some people who want there to be non-stun abattoirs.

But if there are, that doesn't meet my needs - which is to know that animals are not having their throats slit, fully sentient.

Why does an outdated set of cultural practices, attached to a religion, take precedence over that?

Why is it my values that have to be compromised, not those of certain Muslims and Jews?

Incidentally, I'm as woolly liberal as you get, so I'm sort of uncomfortable hearing myself saying this. But I think the fact that we bend over backwards to accommodate all creeds, means we don't stand up for the things we think are right.


My (slightly between-the-lines) point is that most Muslims are happy with pre-stun wheras all Kosher Jews are not, and yet, oddly you tend not to hear people moaning about the number of Jews in our country or who 'are being let in', not even our erstwhile friends Griffin et al. I guess, because parallels to certain events in certain other european countries in the late 1930s would be easy for most people to make.


Which is why I find it pretty depressing that when events like this take place, people are quick to blame the nearest immigrant group that they feel uneasy about - when the reality is that some people wholly unrepresentetive of the ethnic group/religion/sexual orientation/hair coulor/shoe size/whatever other arbitary category you choose to put them in carried this out.


As for my own views on non-stun slaughter, I remain undecided a)because I have never witnessed one and b) because as far as I remember, when one looks at graphs of the heart activity of the animal involved, when it is stunned, the heart rate goes crazy for a second or two, and presumably the animal is pretty stressed at this point, and when its throat is cut (and it is done with a very sharp knife) the heart rate never spikes, it just drops as the animal bleeds out, and if it felt the stroke, you would expect it to. I think worse things happen in terms of welfare on shoots, when a bird is pricked for example and I seem very okay with shooting.

jaykay

  • Joined Aug 2012
  • Cumbria/N Yorks border
Re: Sickening in North West!
« Reply #32 on: November 16, 2012, 09:29:41 pm »
I agree about the finger-pointing bit and that's why I feel uncomfortable with my part in the conversation. But living with that...

Your heart-rate stuff is interesting. I can well imagine the moment of stunning is very stressful. I find it hard to imagine that an animal wouldn't feel pain from a knife. And that the pain would last longer.

Ok, so then, as well as my lack of imagination, if the scientific evidence is that stunning is more stressful than just slitting their throats, why is the law - as applied to most people in the country - for stunning?

As for shooting - I don't have a problem with it, but I would need to know I was good before I would do it and how would I get that way without doing it.....

SteveHants

  • Joined Aug 2011
Re: Sickening in North West!
« Reply #33 on: November 16, 2012, 09:44:21 pm »
Your heart-rate stuff is interesting. I can well imagine the moment of stunning is very stressful. I find it hard to imagine that an animal wouldn't feel pain from a knife. And that the pain would last longer.

Ok, so then, as well as my lack of imagination, if the scientific evidence is that stunning is more stressful than just slitting their throats, why is the law - as applied to most people in the country - for stunning?

As for shooting - I don't have a problem with it, but I would need to know I was good before I would do it and how would I get that way without doing it.....


I think the knife involved is very sharp, and when you think about it, livestock have to be quite impervious to small pains to exist, and possibly, since it doesn't buck/kick/struggle it doesn't feel it (compare to injecting a sheep with something stingy like ivermectin - some bounce around like buggery) and as the blood drains it dies quietly.


I think most people are more comfortable with stunning because a) shooting/stunning is traditional and b) the animal looks to be 'dead' the instant after it happens, it goes into massive shock, eyes close etc.


The shooting point was more that I have been involved (as a beater) with driven shoots for years and birds do get pricked by the guns, sometimes the dogs find them, sometimes they dont - I guess some may recover, the foxes get the rest.


As a slight by-the-by; I think the more you are 'involved' with death, the less it bothers you and the more you think in terms of getting the job done quickly rather than putting yourself in the place of the animal involved. I can remember feeling very sad the first time I shot a rabbit, have since slaughtered 1000s of fish electronically as part of my last job, have been involved in helping out with turkeys on various seasonal operations (so stunning with a blow to the head and bleeding out), have shot sheep that I have deemed to be terminal rather than watch them suffer. I think if I found a suffering sheep that I didn't think I could save out on the downs and I didn't have a gun, rather than stressing it by trailering it etc I would certainly consider slitting its throat there and then.

SallyintNorth

  • Joined Feb 2011
  • Cornwall
  • Rarely short of an opinion but I mean well
    • Trelay Cohousing Community
Re: Sickening in North West!
« Reply #34 on: November 17, 2012, 05:47:12 am »
I believe that a very swift cut with a very sharp knife does not usually cause pain.  I believe this because
  • If I cut myself with a newly-sharpened knife, it doesn't hurt at the time I cut it, only later
  • When our vet castrated three bullocks for us, he chose to do it without anaesthetic as he said it was more stressful and painful for the bullocks to have the anaesthetic administered and then wait until it took effect than to get cut very swiftly with a very sharp scalpel.  And not one of the three showed any sign of noticing the operation occuring.

Many many years ago, I had a friend worked in Environmental Health, doing meat inspections.  He had several Kosher and Muslim abbatoirs on his round.  He said he wasn't upset at the Kosher slaughter, as there is a rule in Kosher slaughter that if any matter at all adheres to the knife, then the whole animal is deemed not Kosher and is waste.  Therefore in the Kosher abbatoirs, the knives are extremely sharp, the process extremely quick and, as far as my friend could tell, painless.

For Halal slaughter, however, there is no such restriction and the knives were not always as sharp as you would want them to be for welfare reasons, he said.  He had witnessed some horrendous scenes which I will not repeat here.

Since then, legislation was introduced to require the stunning of animals before slaughter.  Until tonight I was not aware that there is a wholesale derogation of this requirement in the case of ritual slaughter in a licensed premises conducted by a licensed slaughterman/operative in the presence of a veterinary surgeon.  I could not find any specifics on the training and licensing of such slaughter operatives, but am sure that it would include the minimisation of pain, suffering or awareness of the animals being slaughtered.

I have read up as much as I could find tonight on the Defra website and also a few articles on political websites and the Law Society website. 

Taking a theoretical stance, I do of course agree that if we as a country believe a ritual slaughter is of a lower standard of animal welfare than a non-ritual one, then we should of course ban the non-stunning slaughtering.  However, in practical terms, this would only drive the ritual slaughter underground and overseas.

Therefore, at the moment my working hypothesis is that it is preferable that animals destined for Kosher or Halal butchers should be killed in accordance with the current regulations, ie, "in a licensed premises conducted by a licensed slaughterman/operative in the presence of a veterinary surgeon" rather than the inevitable alternative were we to withdraw the derogation.  The inevitable alternative being that animals destined for the  Kosher or Halal butchers are slaughtered under less supervision and lower welfare standards away from the UK - quite possibly after being shipped alive from our ports to their deaths in unlicensed abbatoirs elsewhere.

On a personal level, we tend to sell by far the majority of our lambs directly to supermarket abbatoirs, or to our local butcher for whom we deliver them to the local abbatoir he and we use.  After my researches tonight I am even less keen to sell our lambs through the auction ring.

The disposal of cast ewes and rams is more problemmatical.  At the moment, the number of ewes who are "my sheep" as opposed to just members of the farm flock is small enough that I can state that none of my own ewes will be sold through a ring; we will take them to the abbatoir ourselves or have them slaughtered on farm.  As to the rest, there is no direct sales outlet available, they will have to be sold through the auction ring.  It is thinking about that has made me realise I would prefer to know that at least they would be headed for slaughter at "a licensed premises conducted by a licensed slaughterman/operative in the presence of a veterinary surgeon", rather than a boat taking them on who knows how long a journey to a possibly unregulated slaughter overseas.

We sell 97% of our cattle as stores, so cannot in any way influence their eventual destination.  The same therefore applies as to cast ewes - I'd rather know they'd be killed as humanely as possible in this country than wonder if they'd end up shipped alive for ritual slaughter overseas.  (BH has already been told that no Jersey bred here will ever leave the farm except to a home vetted and approved by myself - but that's because of specifically how Jersey cows are used by the industry and how Jersey meat bullocks could be treated.)

As so often, I have learned something because of TAS.  Just at the moment, I rather wish I had continued in my previous state of ignorance  :(
Don't listen to the money men - they know the price of everything and the value of nothing

Live in a cohousing community with small farm for our own use.  Dairy cows (rearing their own calves for beef), pigs, sheep for meat and fleece, ducks and hens for eggs, veg and fruit growing

zwartbles

  • Joined Sep 2011
Re: Sickening in North West!
« Reply #35 on: November 17, 2012, 09:13:48 am »
My son who lives in New Zealand kills his own sheep as required. I've not seen it done but he assures me that a non-stunned sheep will die within 10 seconds when it's throat is cut, with very little blood loss.

 

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