[Blackbird]

Apologies for the long post, all.

The leader of my tiny flock of 5 sheep is a 10 year old GFD ewe. She is very thin and throwing a lot of partly-digested cuds and more recently, fresh grass. She's not doing badly for front teeth - only a couple missing. I haven't been able to get to her back teeth, but I assume these are the problem.

She's up to date with wormer, flukicide and vaccination, so I'm assuming the problem is not getting enough grass into her system. I'm supplementing forage with about 250g each of dried grass pellets, ewe nuts and coarse mix 3 times a day - so 2.25kg of supplement a day - much of which seems to get cudded up (she can't manage hay). She doesn't get any fatter. I've tried adding soaked sugar beet and molasses to add calories but she doesn't like either. I rug her up when it's really cold at night as she'sno fat to keep her warm.

Am I looking at the wrong problem? Am I being daft? Could it be anything else? Anything else I should be doing? Is it kinder to have her PTS? She seems otherwise happy enough. The forage by the way is plenty - the 4 lambs are fat as butter.

[Anke]

Are her droppings normal?
I think if she is generally happy, not bullied by the younger animals with her and you are certain that she is not in pain, and you are happy to continue to feed her, then I see no reason to have her PTS. However we are just going into winter, so you may have to prepare yourself to act quickly if she deteriorates as it gets colder.
I would also speak to your neighbours about her and maybe make the vet aware - well-meaning jo-public could be tempted to phone the RSPCA...

[lachlanandmarcus]

I think it would be kinder to let her go, really. I look on it as making room for more relatives of hers/descendants to have their chance and it would be better to let her go while she is still happy rather than waiting until she suffers.
My old good servants - there is only an occasional one eg my old ram dont go off to the abbatoir tho as there would be no meat on them and I want to spare them the stress, instead I got the vet to PTS by injection quietly in the field then the collector picks them up (and knows they cant go in the food chain). It doesnt cost very much and is very peaceful and Ive felt good about it afterwards (once the tears dried).
 

[Blacksheep]

You can sometimes feel gaps in the molars from the outside if you run your hand along the jawline where the teeth are.   
Its a shame that she wouldn't take the soaked sugarbeet, it is a good easy high energy feed, but they can take time to get used to it, after which they generally love it, and it then becomes an excellent feed to tempt a sick or poor sheep to eat with.
See if you can feel any gaps in her molars, unfortunately it is bad news for sheep if they lose these teeth and they just don't hold their weight. It may be worth weighing her if you can as you can then monitor her to see if she is holding her condition through winter or if she is slowly losing it despite the additional feeding regime then it would probably be kindest to pts, as she must surely be feeling hungry if she can't obtain enough nutrients from her feed.  It sounds like she has been a very well cared for favorite ewe.

[Fleecewife]

It is difficult to get a look at the back teeth but worthwhile.  I would be surprised though if she has lost a molar before the front teeth, although dropping cud does suggest that.  Sometimes an older ewe will become thin when she has a wobbly front tooth and once it's out she regains condition - until the next one starts to wobble.
As well as a lost molar, she could have an abscess under a molar - treatable with antibiotics and detectable as a swelling along the jawline.
 
Our oldest ewe is now 17 - each winter we think this will be her last, but because she has lost all her front teeth she is able to maintain excellent condition.  We feed her, and any other oldies, with extra coarse mix and the occasional digestive biscuit.  I know that opinion is divided about feeding digestives as they are not 'natural' sheep food, but once an old ewe has tried them she will usually really enjoy the crunch and benefit from the sugars in the biscuit.  For the 17yo she might get a whole biscuit in a day, whereas younger oldies would only get 1/4.
 
Once you have identified her problem - if it is teeth - then you must monitor her condition carefully.  If she continues to lose weight or appears to be in pain then get her put down, but we have had a couple of older sheep which just didn't wake up one morning after a hard frost the night before, and I think that could be a nice gentle way to go. 
 
Be aware that sheep can also suffer from cancers and other out of the ordinary conditions, hence looking for her being in pain.

[ZaktheLad]

I have a 17 year ewe old suffolk called Molly and although she has no difficukty in holding her weight, I do get concerned about arthritis issues.  She is fine at the moment, but does anyone with an old ewe give them a joint/mobility supplement similar to that you can give to horses - i.e. Cortaflex?   

Blackbird - I hope your ewe improves and you find the root of her problems. 

[SteveHants]

In my experience, keeping cudspitters only leads to heartbreak, sure, you can file their molars, but it will need redoing if that is the problem and he molars aren't simply starting to fall out. They seem to just waste away.


If she is moderatley well-fleshed, get her away whilst you could still get cull money for her.

[downsized]

Sam bought in a couple of very well bred10yr olds with good lambing records, not in as good a condition as the younger females but then wouldn't expect any different. Hope is to get a couple of ewe lambs from them then if they're going downhill he'll get rid but retain bloodlines in the flock, if they're healthy and happy enough to breeed another year then that's a bonus.

[lachlanandmarcus]

my concern with older ewes being kept for breeding is the risks of twin lamb disease - having experienced it year before last I am now much more pro sending off the oldies rather than throwing the dice. Of course it can happen in any age sheep but much more likely with older ladies who arent in such good condition to begin with esp if teeth starting to go.
I do have one older ewe (8yo) who will go to the ram this year but only because she is a strapping lassie with good teeth still and she throws amazing lambs, always twins, one of each sex. But after that, if her teeth go, so will she, for her sake.

[SteveHants]

I keep ewes till I dont think they have put on enough condition to go back to the tup (or I cull for some other reason, bags, feet, teeth, etc). I do 'nurse' older ewes a bit - one beetlic hi mag seems to keep the twin lamb disease at bay.

[mart2671]

It does sound like it could be due to her teeth , once they loose one or two from the the front they find it very difficult to graze or eat properly so keeping on weight is very difficult .
I have heard old farmers say that they use to pull out there remaining teeth when they had lost some with pliers so they could eat better , and keep there weight on .

[Fleecewife]

It does sound like it could be due to her teeth , once they loose one or two from the the front they find it very difficult to graze or eat properly so keeping on weight is very difficult .
I have heard old farmers say that they use to pull out there remaining teeth when they had lost some with pliers so they could eat better , and keep there weight on .

Yes that does work, although I wouldn't like having my teeth pulled out without a lot of local anaesthetic      But the dropping cud aspect implies molars rather than front teeth.
 
There was an onegar (sp?)/ass on Rolf Harris' show tonight with just the symptoms described - it had overgrown molars with sharp bits on which were filed down.
 
Although I keep my ewes until they are ancient I don't necessarily breed from them.  My 17 yo was bred at 15 and it was during that winter that she started to lose her front teeth, so we haven't bred her again, even though she is very fit still.   8 seems very young to consider 'old' but I suppose it depends on the breed and your system.
As you can imagine I have a small flock of ancient unbred biddies as well as my breeding flock.   It's not that I'm soppy, just that I like having them around, they are old friends, and I don't particularly need lots of lambs each year.  Their fleeces are lovely and soft for spinning and are mostly interesting shades of brown and grey which is a pleasant change after endless just-about-black ones. 

[colliewoman]

There was an onegar (sp?)/ass on Rolf Harris' show tonight with just the symptoms described - it had overgrown molars with sharp bits on which were filed down.
 

Hmmmmm interesting..... The treatment for molar spurs in rabbits, if not severe enough to need burring/filing is to make them eat loads of long fibre hay. I wonder if because she hasn't been eating hay, she isn't filing her own teeth? Could you soak some hay in a bit of molasses to see if she can be tempted at all?
Or see if the vet can gag her and file them down, that would perhaps be the best. Once filed down and any soreness gone she might be able to eat hay again?
Molar spurs are the bane of any rabbit rescuers life, It hadn't occured to me that it could happen to sheep too


Good luck with her, you could also try liquid feed in one of those rollerball dispenser type thingies

[Blackbird]

Thanks all for your thoughts and views. Anke, Daffy's droppings are normal and there is no evidence that she is pain or being bullied - she bosses the lambs about and trots up to see me when I bring feed every time. I feed her in a hurdle pen so the greedy lambs don't steal her grub. Out  of curiousity, I've just had a good rootle around her mouth (rather brave I thought, as she is A Sheep With Attitude and smells like a compost bin!). I couldn't leave my finger and thumb in her mouth for long enough to count the teeth, but she definitely has some molars both sides, top and bottom and is only missing 2 incisors. She really didn't object too much which I'd expect if she had an abscess for instance. Also, she's been dropping cuds since I was given her in July so it's not something new.

Colliewoman, that's a good point about the hay  - she's not touching it at the moment - I'll try some mixed with molasses.

I think what I'll do is ask the vet's advice and depending on what she says, get her to have a look and see if her teeth need filing/pulling or if there is possibly some other problem unrelated to her teeth. My tiny flock are non-breeding and with me for life -they are lawnmowers, companions for the ponies and give me fleece and a lot of fun and interest.  Daffodil lambed last April and I also have her (wether) lamb, and she won't be breeding again.

If vet or I think she's in pain or deteriorating further, I won't prolong things. Will let you know how it goes. Thanks all.

[SteveHants]

The other thing that can cause cudspitting is ingesting rhodedendrons.