[Fleecewife]

Er...your particular respondent on the shetland list went away with the faeries a long time ago Judith  .  Kind of turns my brain to porage 

[jaykay]

Oh, I'm glad it wasn't just me 

Here's a sample of the conversation FW and I are talking about 

I try not to impose morals upon nature, nor harness the essence of the beast it is not mine to tinker or spoil , I am a mere observer & batten holder and must allow these primitive genes to remain , Hormones are the cause of the behaviour & nature, the animal out of season was very different, a more scientific stance would no doubt better explain the role of the rams behaviour , It would be easier to use an analogy but in consideration of our influence when we enclose living beings within rigid parameters and expect perceived good behaviour we diminish that which we seek because to remove any one thing we may loose other important elements, it is reasonable to suggest that the daughters of such a ram would indeed better protect their lambs or that it is specific to male behaviour patterns "in a wild and natural setting, where lesser masculine genes would have lost the females to wolves or inferior males and hence the species die out ", what role does that have in nature ?.
I would not allow this type of thing to exclude management or welfare, and acted to maintain them seeing as it's my doing the animals were in the situation in the first place, the females are easy to manage. It is fear which keeps us alive the antidote to complacency, we are not designed to do combat with Ovines and my physiological reactions were spot on.
I have had the very same thing happen twice before with two other bought in rams all blood unrelated, the only risk I take is exposing the truth rather than quietly culling it out and not going public, "Honesty"!!.
(Conservator of Shetland Sheep which by the way are not dumb fluffy pets)          

[Fronhaul]

Well it is pretty easy to tell who it isn't from that quote.  Mind I would agree that Shetlands are far from dumb on occasions both in the literal and figurative sense.  I keep threatening to record Medici's baa and sell it to a foghorn manufacturer and I am still trying to work out how the little dears managed to open a gate the other day .......

[SteveHants]

Oh, I'm glad it wasn't just me 

Here's a sample of the conversation FW and I are talking about 

I try not to impose morals upon nature, nor harness the essence of the beast it is not mine to tinker or spoil , I am a mere observer & batten holder and must allow these primitive genes to remain , Hormones are the cause of the behaviour & nature, the animal out of season was very different, a more scientific stance would no doubt better explain the role of the rams behaviour , It would be easier to use an analogy but in consideration of our influence when we enclose living beings within rigid parameters and expect perceived good behaviour we diminish that which we seek because to remove any one thing we may loose other important elements, it is reasonable to suggest that the daughters of such a ram would indeed better protect their lambs or that it is specific to male behaviour patterns "in a wild and natural setting, where lesser masculine genes would have lost the females to wolves or inferior males and hence the species die out ", what role does that have in nature ?.
I would not allow this type of thing to exclude management or welfare, and acted to maintain them seeing as it's my doing the animals were in the situation in the first place, the females are easy to manage. It is fear which keeps us alive the antidote to complacency, we are not designed to do combat with Ovines and my physiological reactions were spot on.
I have had the very same thing happen twice before with two other bought in rams all blood unrelated, the only risk I take is exposing the truth rather than quietly culling it out and not going public, "Honesty"!!.
(Conservator of Shetland Sheep which by the way are not dumb fluffy pets)           

Dear lord, I have never seen such a pile of crap written about sheep. Breeds are transient - we bred them a certain way and each person selects differently, they are not wild animals, they are there because of humans, not in spite of them.


Although I'm not sure the author of that mail would agree with me, mind...

[jaykay]

 

[in the hills]

Blimey 


Okay, I may now be shot down  but if you look at what the writer is actually saying, in my opinion, there is quite a lot of common sense in there. I did have to read it 3 times though to make any sense of it at all. Think only having worked with young children and then just being "mum" I have lost the ability to decipher the flowery language so maybe I have interpreted it differently to others. Think the ideas in there are quite simple ones dressed in a lot of "language".


I'll have another cup of coffee ..... see if I read it differently.

[jaykay]

I think it's overly romantic and applies to wild animals not domestic ones.

[Anke]

Hmmm... I am quite glad that I did unsubscribe recently... although that was after some conversations in Latin... 
I did read the above three times and have decided my brain isn't up to this....

[lachlanandmarcus]

I did Ancient Greek at university (and have recently revived my study of it) and that is a lot easier to read and understand than the quotation posted 

[in the hills]

I know very little of sheep in general so I suppose read it thinking mainly of Soay on St Kilda. Aggression in tups if that is how we are to describe it is I suppose quite natural and to do with survival of the species. Suppose we all partly work with that instinct when possible rather than clash with it eg. by feeding over the fence, removing the tup before handling ewes . She acknowledges that they are not wild in a sense by saying that she is basically "keeping" them and so must manage for welfare etc.  I read that she doesn't want to lose their "primitive " nature ..... that is what makes them good mums and so on. The males "aggression" maybe important in retaining other things that we may value eg mothering . That she is willing to discuss openly the fact that they can be "aggressive".


Don't know .... is she someone very keen on not "interfering" too much with the breed in order to preserve what she believes are valuable instincts.


I have a neighbour who speaks in a fashion similar to this. At the end of the day it could just be said very simply, in very few words and then everyone would know what she wanted them to know.
But, hey, we are all different 

[SteveHants]

I understood what the person was saying, unfortunatley confusing 'rare breed livestock' with 'endangered species of wild animal' happens too often, to the point where people with certain breeds feel a bit 'naughty' crossbreeding with something else.


I remember when I first started with Wilts, ringing round numbers on the breed soc webpage and being told in hushed tones "I know its wrong, but they rear a superb lamb when put to the Texel"


They are your animals - do what you want with them, if we all thought like that, there would never be any new breeds of anything.


If it suits you, breed out agressive tups - it makes a whole world of sense to address safety issues before preserving an imagined 'wildness'....

[jaykay]

Suppose we all partly work with that instinct when possible rather than clash with it eg. by feeding over the fence, removing the tup before handling ewes

You see I don't want to do that if I can help it. I've been there, had a tup that was large and aggressive and I had to manage the place around him. And was scared dealing with him.

I don't expect my animals to be fluffy pets - but I do want them to be possible to work round without fear or damage. I want to be able to walk in their field without being attacked and I want to be able to feed the tup in with the ewes when it's tupping season - anything else creates a management problem.

I think that's what domestication is about and I don't see a role for aggressive tups in that - there are plenty of good, calm ones about.

I question any connection between male aggression and good mothering. There may be but I don't know of anything that has established that link.

[in the hills]

I agree with you Jaykay, once you domesticate stock you breed for the characteristics that you desire ..... keep what is good and breed out what you consider as undesirable. Too much aggression in a tup is dangerous obviously but I understood from posts on here that maybe feeding in a certain way when a tup is in with ewes may lead to problems that stem basically from  "aggression". I suppose you are giving him a reason to be bossy because he is following you waiting for his dinner. I think that I could have made this mistake and this year will change the way I feed them while I have the tup. He will be on loan so I see it as my responsibility to handle him/manage things in a way that doesn't lead to any heightened aggression or give him a reason to feel that he needs to be bossy. That doesn't mean that I won't venture into the field or anything as dramatic as that but just that I will try not to put him in a position where he needs to get bolshy. Just as I removed him from the field when I had to deal with the ewes.


Would be easier if the tup was really calm and you could do whatever, whenever but is that possible in most cases? I haven't the experience to know  . Thinking about it, even when I have to treat our RIR hens for lice etc. I treat the cockerel first and then lock him in the coop while I treat the hens. He is a real gentle giant and would be in the pot if he wasn't but he gets upset if his hens are upset and so I don't put him in the position where he feels like he wants to have a go. Same thing as managing feed time with a tup in the field with ewes, I think.[size=78%] I am not saying that I would want to use or keep an aggressive tup anymore than I would keep a really aggressive cockerel. [/size]

[jaykay]

I think you're right, feeding gets many sheep a bit bolshy  and it's worth thinking about the best way to do it.

I don't know that tups are ever completely sweetness and light when they're in tupping season (they are boys, after all  ) but they vary greatly and it seems to me that keeping and breeding from very aggressive ones isn't sensible, whereas selecting calmer ones makes life easier.

[minibn]

I have 6x Shetland rams, who are as soft and friendly as anything. They can be a little boisterous between each other and i do not have any ewes. They usally come bounding over when they see me and they love a good scratch.

Regards

Emily