[kumquat]

Hi Folks
I'm about to embark on my first winter with primitives (Shetlands & Soays) and i'd like to draw on the wealth of communal knowledge.
Now i know that it depends on height, exposure, temperature and the state of the land etc but i'm after a rough (idiots??) guide.
Naively i was thinking something like "Hay - given adlib especially in snowy conditions and nuts/cake every other day during the worst of winter (Dec - Feb??). We are in Clwydian Hills about 750ft ASL

primitives would need less, I'm feeding mine 1/3lb /head /day), from end Oct through until the spring grass was growing properly.  5 months tops.

what do the more experienced members do?
Thanks
Jon

[colliewoman]

Hay and a licky bucket for mine once it gets crispy underfoot. I feed hard feed towards the end of pregnancy, but I am in a very mild spot
 
 

[Fleecewife]

I am at 1000' in Southern Scotland and keep Soays, Hebrideans and Shetlands.
 
 For the males (hoggs and breeding tups) and ewe hoggs, we feed adlib hay all winter, a daily handful each of Tup coarse mix when there's snow on the ground or it's hard frozen (which is mostly) , and they have a WCF sugarcorn licky bucket - oh and fresh water always of course. When we are pruning they also have willow branches to chew on and sometimes apple branches, ash etc - these provide minerals and vitamins.
 
For breeding ewes, we give the same as the males except they have a more regular dose of coarse mix.  We haven't started feeding that yet to any, although we have put out some hay today for the first time - there is still grass but its nutrient content is lowered by the cold weather and we are approaching tupping time.   In some years when the snow has come early we have given them coarse mix at tupping time, but usually we don't start that until the tups are removed, so sometime in December.  We then continue a little hard feed right through until after they have lambed, but increasing on the 'rising plane of nutrition' in the six weeks leading up to the start of lambing, and tailing off afterwards. Because we run our breeds together, and we don't scan, we have to give a fairly innacurate rate of feed, but averaging about 3/4 lb each by the end of March (we lamb in April).  In addition to the Sugar corn, the breeding ewes have a Crystalix bucket.   
 
In fact I take an empirical approach to feeding, in that I judge how the animals are looking and increase or decrease their feed accordingly.  I also take into account how keen they are to eat it - if it all goes instantly then I know they need a bit more.  The Primitives are not greedy sheep (except some Shetlands) so tend not to overstuff themselves, so if there is feed left over for the hens to scaff then I've fed the sheep too much.
 
I've just modified the amount prelambing to 3/4 lb - I'm not really sure just how much we do give.
 
 

[in the hills]

   Will be interested in your replies kumquat. Going into our 3rd winter with our Soay now and still not sure I'm doing things correctly ..... I am a bit of a worrier. 


Local farmer who has commercials but has an interest in sheep breeds in general always says, "Good God my girl, yours would survive on nothing even when snows on the ground" ...... reckons they would dig/ browse trees etc.   So I try not to feed too much in case I cause other problems. He reckons I'd have , "em rollin down the hill".


We are at about 800ft and rough/poor grazing I guess.


I put out hay from about end of October. Do this twice a day and about as much as they will finish in one go .... leaving a bit in the manger. If I fill it they seem to waste a lot and seem not to eat hay that has been sitting in the manger for a day or so.


Give a handful of coarse mix each once a day. Twice a day when snow is down or as lambing time got closer.


In general they don't eat hay if offered ...... example as the grass begins to grow in the spring they stop eating it ... so if they are taking it I assume they must need it.    This may not be true of other breeds but mine don't seem keen to take food unless they have to. Even true of coarse mix up to a point. They rush to the trough but have a nibble and then walk off. Chickens enjoy it though. 

[size=78%]Probably not doing things the right way but they seem to be doing okay. I have asked for an idiots guide but think there are probably too many variables for people to give even that ..... so just going by instict in the main [/size] [size=78%]  [/size]

[in the hills]

Sorry, cross posted with FW who knows WAAAAYYYY more than me ...... can't find a bowing down icon 


Yes, we had a lick bucket too last winter.


We started hay last week because they "looked" hungry and the grass is so sodden and looks poor even though I know it must still be growing. Looked hungry as in they were trying to browse hedges they couldn't reach, nibbling nettles and generally coming to humans more than normal.


Do watch them rather a lot     

[SallyintNorth]

Sorry, cross posted with FW who knows WAAAAYYYY more than me ...... can't find a bowing down icon 

   It's on the 'more' page 

inthehills your regime sounds good to me.  Especially the watching them a lot and adjusting if they're clearly hungry.

But Fleecewife has masses more experience of overwintering primitives than me too 

[kumquat]

   Thanks for the replies everyone.....great advice.


FW - definitely agree with the empirical approach and i'll vary it to suit weather conditions. Great excuse to watch them even more


Forgot to mention about having a licky bucket and  cut branches (all fields have mature hazel, willow in boundaries). Good to hear that they won't stuff themselves (well not too much  )


ITH - i have to admit we've fallen for Soays in a big way so will be steadily increasing the numbers. whereabouts are you? for some reason i've got it into my head you are on the welsh side of the border.


Thanks again everyone....

[in the hills]

   Hi, yeah, between Welshpool and Newtown.


         Yes, bought the sheep mainly as lawnmowers, with the idea of possibly our own meat but becoming a bit sheep obsessed ..... and of course the Soay are the best breed you can have    .... a bit addictive me thinks. Now searching for more land to rent but not having much luck. 


Even the local farmers are starting to ask a few questions about them now ..... heard we haven't had any foot problems, strike, etc. They thought they were really amusing to start with but can see they're getting a wee bit jealous now. 

[JMB]

Hello.
Not that I'm very experienced and just have a few Hebs and a Shetland, but mine don't tend to eat the hay much. They have a go, and particularly if there is snow, but it can be a waste.
And it has to be in a feeder- they won't eat it off the ground, and mine used to pull it out last year and sleep on it!
I give then sheep nuts, sometimes some sugar beet and they LOVE stealing the chicken corn, but not sure how good this is for them.
J xxx
 

[in the hills]

To get mine to eat hay initially, I had to push handfuls of it into the hedges, then the stock fence and eventually a rack. They've got it now though. 

[Fleecewife]

Local farmer who has commercials but has an interest in sheep breeds in general always says, "Good God my girl, yours would survive on nothing even when snows on the ground" ...... reckons they would dig/ browse trees etc.   So I try not to feed too much in case I cause other problems. He reckons I'd have , "em rollin down the hill".

I had to pick up on this bit from your local farmer.  Primitives are sheep first and need to be fed.  Yes, they can survive on more meagre grazing than bigger softer sheep, but they won't thrive on no food.  Unfortunately the breed societies are partially guilty of starting the myth, in their keeness to popularise the Primitive breeds.  I have previously mentioned a flock of Hebrideans which were kept on Culloden Moor for a while - many died and even those which were rescued ended up mostly having to be put down.  This was because the grazing was inadequate through the winter and they were not given any extra. (Also I think they ate broom for lack of anything else, which fermented inside with toxic effects)   Sadly similar cruelty has happened to other Primitive sheep because people truly believe that they don't need any supplementary feeding. However, if you look at the grazing on St Kilda for example, it is surprisingly rich and can support a healthy flock of Soay sheep.  Once their numbers reach a certain point though there is a population crash where they die of starvation and worms.  But the quality of grazing they have evolved with is better than that which they are often grazed on here, so mineral and other supplements are needed
 
Yes Primitives can scrape down through the snow, as can other breeds, although I have found that once the snow is about a foot deep they can't reach the grass beneath - if there is any!  The nutritional content of grass over the winter is poor, particularly grass which is frozen, and in general sheep pasture has all been eaten down to nothing in the autumn so there is nothing left for them to eat after all that scraping.
 
So when you hear this misinformation, please either ignore it or correct it.  Primitives do need to be fed, they just don't need so much as larger commercial breeds of sheep.
 
Thank you all for your kind comments       but there is so much more to learn out there.  I love hearing everyone else's experiences and how you all deal with your sheep in a wide variety of environments.
 
 

[jaykay]

This is all really helpful 

FW, thank you for pointing out that primitives need feeding, there does seem to be this myth around that they can survive on thin air, which rough grazing at this time of year and onwards is no better than, and then look at those poor sheep that turned up at York, stick thin  , clearly sometimes the myth is listened to!

It seems to me (from my one year's experience with Shetlands  ) they need feeding like any other hill breed, just adjusting for their size.

I started with hay yesterday and they've been having coarse mix for the past month, though quite small quantities so far, partly it's a management thing, it has them come so I can check them every day.

[in the hills]

Yes FW.   Thank you.    Sorry should have used this    maybe as others could read it that my neighbour advised not to feed them at all when in fact he was trying to point out in his jokey way that I could cause problems from over-feeding and being too generous with my rations and that even during winter they would find some nutrition themselves. His advice is to feed a little from now onwards in order that they never drop too much in condition.

[Fleecewife]

Hi in the hills - I got that    but it was too good an opportunity to make the point to ignore it.  As Jaykay has said, it's topical at the moment 

[in the hills]