[Alistair]

Just to set the scene, I have three lovely dogs, a gsx, a border collie and big loveable George, he's a saluki x greyhound lurcher.
George was found in a hedge at about 1yr old, 1/3rd body weight and covered in wounds, he then spent 8 months in kennels, was generally ignored as he was basically uncontrollable. I've had in for 18months now in which time he's filled out, grown a coat, learnt to be a dog, and learnt basic commands, sit, stay, lie down, recall and so on.
He has in this time not shown any sign of hard wired chasing instinct for anything other than other dogs when he's playing.

Until now. The switch has been flipped, he just set off from a beach after a sheep some half a mile away or so, not called sight hounds for nothing, got to the sheep and it ran off, got away, couldn't get him back for a couple of minutes though.

Now I'm not a novice with dogs and dog training, I used to compete in obedience competitions, I'm not a novice with lurchers, this is my 4th, and I've always taken rescue dogs with problems.

My feeling is that's it, the switch has been flipped, the instinct is there, he shouldn't EVER be let off lead in open areas where he might encounter livestock again, this time I was lucky he didn't catch it.

Have any of you had experience with trying to accustom lurchers to livestock, not sure what approach to take, he sees sheep now and that's it, he's trying to chase, I'm stopping him on the lead and going through the calm down process taking about 20 mins, and then set off walking again, cople of seconds later he's off again, spent yesterday afternoon doing this and walked about 1/3rd mile!

Both other dogs have no issue with livestock, they've always been around sheep etc

Any ideas gratefully recieved

[lachlanandmarcus]

I think your instinct is right.
Unless you want the risk of  him to be shot and a bill for damages as well, I would say a lead or long line is the only safe option.
I say that as owner of a non livestock safe dog and the owner of a flock of sheep (our only solution was a 4 acre 7 foot fence, other than that he is on the lead and in the house there is a built in dog gate set back so if I open the front door there is no chance of him getting out. He had 3 weeks of residential training and they couldnt do anything about the 'recall once see/smell/hear livestock thing' kicked in.

[Alistair]

Yup, It is a shame, but at least he's got a happy home now.

I still need to get him calmer though even on the lead, that's just lots of time and effort, but he's worth it

[Mammyshaz]

Breaking an instinct is very difficult, and sometimes impossible. He may never be able to control that will to 'chase' with being a lurcher.  Just trying your best as you are doing, teaching him a strong recall and teaching him to 'leave' anything he has interest in ( starting with basic leaving of treats and toys on command ) may help. But you may never have a totally trustworthy dog around livestock 

 It is months and months of hard work and consistency is essential. You can only do your best, by trying to overcome it, or at least reducing the instances when he would run, by putting in the control you have worked on.  Wish you good luck and hope it does pay off. 

[doganjo]

Have you any friends with sheep?  Ask for help from a tup that will see him off or a ewe with a  lamb at foot - take him in a [pen with teh sheep on a line making sure you have an easy exit in case the sheep get stroppy.  It should make him wary of sheep.  you can do this with other farm animals too.  You won't stop him chasing rabbits etc now except if you use an e-collar on him. If you decide to go down that route, the collar needs to be on him without being activated for at least two weeks, and without him being reprimanded in any way when he is wearing it.  Then take him to an area where he can chase but you can catch him - and zap him the second he goes to chase. 

I haven't ever used one of these but they have their uses and a friend did stop one of mine leaping fences and escaping using his own e-collar.

[SallyintNorth]

What a shame.  Poor George, poor you. 

Like yourself, I had dogs for years, nearly always rescues.  In my case mostly GSD Collie mixes, just the one odd lurcher-type, with a lot of hound in her.  Obedience, agility, etc.  Quite often got brought 'problem' dogs to help, and from about 8 years old I was always glad to train anyone's dog as I loved doing it so much, so I had a reasonable breadth of experience.

Back then, before I was a farmer so all the dogs were pets, not workers, I found the only way to manage the collie types around sheep was to teach them that looking at sheep was naughty.  Once they've 'locked on', the ears stop working and you won't get them back till they're ready.  So I did training in areas where I knew there were sheep but they weren't visible all the time - gorsey moorland, for instance - with dogs under close control (if not on lead then walking to heel; always on lead in early stages of training.)  Being taller, I would see the sheep before the dogs, so I'd be ready.  The instant the dog saw the sheep, reprimand, pull 'em away.  (You'll know it really does have to be the very instant they see them; a split second later and they're mentally gone!)  When dog is walking quietly at heel not looking at sheep, lots of praise.  Repeat repeat repeat repeat.  And again and again and again.  Eventually, all my dogs would see sheep and turn back to me - looking at sheep nasty, back to mum good.  You would still get the odd 'moment' - when a dog surprises a sheep (and itself) and the sheep runs, the instinct is too strong and most dogs will give chase.  But in normal walking through open farmland where the sheep are visible in the distance, I would have nice controlled dogs walking nearby to me.

All of which gave me a good laugh when I took dear old Horace (long-haired GSD x collie rescue dog; had been a very talented rounder-upper of sheep on arrival  ) on my first sheep farm WWOOF.  The orphan lambs ran about at liberty and of course came to greet the new arrivals.  Horace turned and ran away, the lambs pursued, Horace knew it was naughty to look and kept turning away, they kept trying to come up and touch noses - bless that dog! 

I don't know if that approach will work with your George; I guess it depends on how much it matters to him to please you.  With collie / GSD types, you get that as a given, so you can use praise and displeasure to guide behaviour quite readily.


Another tactic which the police dog trainers use (at least, the ones I've met do), is to give the dog an obsession with chasing something else, usually a ball.  Really get the dog totally obsessed with the toy (relatively easy with collie types, they're OCD out the box!), and keep that toy with you at all times.  When you know sheep may be about, keep the dog playing with the toy.


And my only other suggestion is to have a friend with a video camera with you, rename George something like 'Kenton' and (only after weaning and before tupping, of course, never at times when the sheep are vulnerable to metabolic upsets when chased) give the world some entertainment.  (Just kidding!)

[SteveHants]

Might it be a good idea to let him nab you a few rabbits so that he becomes more fixated on those? Kind of diverting his energies. One of the best 'rewards' a dog can have is when you pick up the 'prey' because then the hunt is successful - works with collies and sheep too apparently, you touching the gathered sheep is kind of 'closure' for the dog. This has also been offered as a suggestion as to why some gundogs get a bit bored with dummy work but never tire of the real thing.


However, don't take my advice straight off, Id wait for someone more 'doggy' to confirm/refute what I have said.

[in the hills]

Aren't electric dog collars illegal? I thought they were, at least in Wales. Have I got that wrong?


Have heard that being in with a tup, as Doganjo describes, can work. Not sure 


I have no experience with other breeds than gundogs but have always loved greyhounds and lurchers. I took the opportunity to chat to a representative from the Greyhound Rescue recently about the suitability of keeping these on our smallholding and indeed sheep country that we live in. They seemed to say that in the case of many of these dogs(obviously some exceptions) that even if trained really well to the recall, they would not respond once they started to chase. They described the curving of the tail etc that indicated a chase was to happen. They said that for many only lead exercise was possible except in enclosed paddocks. Decided not for us.


Wish you well in sorting your lad. He is so lucky to have found you and much better to have to exercise on the lead if necessary than the life he had before.

[doganjo]

. This has also been offered as a suggestion as to why some gundogs get a bit bored with dummy work but never tire of the real thing.
However, don't take my advice straight off, Id wait for someone more 'doggy' to confirm/refute what I have said.

Spot on, Steve - mine will only pick up canvas dummies now if they have rabbit skins or winds on them - but Labradors don't seem to have that problem - they'll pick up anything till the coos come hame,

E-collars are not yet illegal in Scotland, Ireland and England although it's going that way - I think they are illegal in Wales.

As I said I don't use them myself but I do believe they have their uses in a case of sheep chasing.  I have seen it work.

[Alistair]

I'm a shearer by trade!, access to tups etc ain't an issue, it's probably worth a try, I'm working tomorrow so might take him along just in case there's an opportunity. Long lead and muzzle as well.

We have been trying ball fixation, it's just a ball is less exciting than a sheep to him, the saluki side of him also gives him a very aloof demeanour, and he's a lurcher so not the sharpest pencil in the box, he was also stray for so long that that close bond may take years to properly develop, wish I'd had him from a pup.

Greyhound rescue is where a few of my previous dogs -and indeed George came from

I don't use e collars, just personally don't like them, there are water spray collars or a squirty bottle I suppose, only issue is these IMO can lead to a fear complex in future

[SallyintNorth]

Aren't electric dog collars illegal? I thought they were, at least in Wales. Have I got that wrong?

I thought they had now been outlawed except for licensed practitioners.  There are people who do sheep aversion training with collies; don't know of there are any offer this service for lurcher types.

Have heard that being in with a tup, as Doganjo describes, can work. Not sure 

Some farmers tell you to try this.  A vet friend of mine, with a lot of experience vetting in farming country (Yorkshire Dales) although he now has his own predominantly small animal practice in Cambs, told me never ever to do this.  Far far too likely to end up with terrible injuries to the dog before you can get it to safety.  He had had quite enough of trying to repair ruptured intestines and worse in dogs this had been done with, he said.  (And putting dog in with ewe with lambs was worse still, he said.)

Our working collies treat the front end of sheep, particularly tups, ewes with lambs, or any horned sheep, with a great deal of respect.  But they know fine well the butting bit isn't at the back end - and that's the bit a chaser likes to chase. 

[Mammyshaz]

Knowing lurchers well, unfortunately they really don't have that same toy/ball drive as some working or pastoral breeds.
Their instinct is to chase, and it it finding something that breaks the THOUGHT of fixating BEFORE it happens.

 If you can toy or ball fixate then all the better for it. If not then diverting the thought to yourself is the other method. Using food treats is one method. Give your comment to ignore ( I use 'leave it' ) and give the treat the second the dog gives eye contact.

This training is best started in the house with leaving treats or toys alone then advancing to outside once he known the meaning of it. Gradually upping the distraction to finally around sheep. Remembering big praise and whatever method you are using, the instant he looks at you. Once you have this then the length of time he is looking at you can be lengthened.
It may help, but being a lurcher it will still be hard to completely cut the chase instinct.

[in the hills]

SITN - Interesting. I know farmers round here talk of this method for solving sheep worrying but don't think I would feel comfortable putting my dog in that confrontational situation.


Alistair- Perhaps The Greyhound Rescue could give you some advice that is specific to your type of dog. They must have come across this many times. The person I spoke to was very helpful and the rescue may know how best to deal with problems associated with the chase instinct which is a key characteristic of these breeds. I would imagine it is very different from dealing with a gundog that has a tendency to chase for example.


Cross posted with Mammyshaz. Along the same lines I think.

[Alistair]

Steve/mammyshaz, sent an email to their behavioural specialist already!

Georges leave it and wait commands are outstanding already, food, toy whatever, the issue I have is that the switch gets flipped soooo very quickly it almost impossible to intervene at the precise moment it starts, the only visible sign of excitement is the tail bending up, and then he's in the zone. As this is new behaviour I'd guess there are other much subtler signs that I'm not reading yet, that'll only come with time.

I think th crux of the issue is I just need to be more exciting than anything else in his life, cue wavy arms and high pitched voice

[lachlanandmarcus]

Spray collars are ok.....until or unless your dog, as ours did, works out that if they put up with the squirts for long enough, the reservoir WILL run out....   and then they are no use at all!