[SteveHants]

Thats the toy, not the things between their legs....


I had heard, somewhat unreliably, that working Collies shouldn't be allowed to play with them too much. However, nobody told my other half or my daughter this and now my pups favourite occupation is ball-chasing (as of last week, I might add). He is as yet unworked, as he was only born in late December, and he seems no less keen to work than he did before (He goes mental when he sees sheep, especially when he is in the back of the landy and they are running, almost turns summersaults).


I have been 'making the best of a bad job' and using the ball as a training aid, he can stand and lie down and I have been sending him out after the ball and standing him (and/or lying him down) when he has it, before calling him back. Seems to be working, in spite of him being very excitable, so I figure its a good thing.


Should I carry on with this or nip it in the bud?

[Beewyched]

I'm not a collie owner/trainer, but ...
I would have thought anything to encourage & strengthen the relationship between you should be a positive thing.

[SallyintNorth]

I'm not terribly experienced, but have had three working collies.  I've trained Dot from scratch, bought Skip part-trained and have brought him on, and Ted arrived knowing what to do but with no commands whatsoever 

I think they're all pretty useful dogs now    And my BiL thinks so much of Skip he borrows him every February to go lambing with him now his own dog is too old.


Collies are obsessive, they're bred that way.  If you had a dog you wanted to work that wasn't obsessed with sheep, you wouldn't want it to become obsessed with an alternative.  Dog trainers working to manage sheep-obsession in non-working dogs will try to develop an obsession with balls (or ragger, or squeaky toy, or anything the handler can control the dog's access to), then use the object of the dog's obsession to distract the dog from the sheep.  So as a general rule, one wouldn't want a collie that's to work to get too interested in any toys.

Some people also think it will harm a collie's outrun (where it runs out in an arc to skirt wide around the sheep and get to the other side of them before coming in to bring them to you) to be running straight after a ball or other toy.

But, they have to be puppies and they have to play!  So a bit of fun with a few different toys, a bit of chasing and fetching, won't hurt.  As your dog is clearly very interested in sheep, you probably wouldn't be able to override that obsession in any case.  So I wouldn't be too upset about it, but I wouldn't do too much of that with him yourself, I'd leave that to be a game he plays with your daughter.

However, my main concern with what you've been doing is that with a working collie, all training and all training words really need to relate to sheep.  It's a mistake to start teaching any of the working vocabulary in the absence of sheep, with the possible exception of '[come] here' and a heel command, as these two alone are the same in the presence or the absence of sheep.

"Come Bye" doesn't mean "Go left", it means "Go clockwise round the sheep".  Depending where the dog is when the command is given, it may have to run right to get to the sheep and go clockwise around them.  Similarly, "Away [to me]" doesn't mean "Go right", it means "Go anticlockwise round the sheep."

"Walk On", doesn't mean, "Walk forwards", it means "Walk towards the sheep."

"Lie down" doesn't mean the same to a working collie as it does to a pet or obedience collie.  It does not mean "flatten your body on the ground where you are and wait for another command."  It means "focus on the sheep; lower your body; remain focussed on the sheep and don't move".  In other words, when a shepherd tells his/her dog to "lie down", the dog should stop moving, usually lower its body or lie down facing and looking at the sheep.  Most shepherds have at least three "Lie down" commands.  All of them sound like "Lie down" to a non-shepherd.  (1) means "focus on the sheep, pause"; (2) means "focus on the sheep; stop and lower your body a little", and (3) means "focus on the sheep and lie down, really lie down".  That's one of the reasons a lot of people think many collies are "hard to stop" - they hear the shepherd calling, "lie down  ....  Lie Down!  ... LIE DOWN!!!!" and think the collie ignored the first two commands. Well, it may have done, but equally likely, the shepherd was bringing the collie slowly onto the sheep, slowing it as it gets nearer, so as not to spook them.  On the final "LIE DOWN!!!!", the collie should have the sheep under control from the prone position.  If it'd stopped flat on the first "lie down", they would have known it was too far away and couldn't stop them and they wouldn't have been under control.  If it'd approached without that slowing, they would have spooked and run away, and not been under control.

So, Steve, I really wouldn't be teaching your dog any commands you want to use with sheep while you are playing with him with the ball.  In fact, I wouldn't be teaching him any commands at all except a come here (come straight to me, in a straight line, no matter what obstacle is in the way) command and a walking to heel command.  Maybe a "drop it" command.  (Don't use "That'll do" for that!)

Collie-training works best when you let the collie do what comes naturally and then tell it what it's doing.  So let it run round the sheep; as it moves clockwise around them, tell it, "Come Bye"; as it moves anticlockwise around them, tell it, "Away".  You get it to change direction without a spoken command by using your body to shift the sheep so that the dog changes direction to compensate.  Then tell it what it's doing.  Gradually it learns to associate the sound with the action and you can start to give the command ahead of the action.  There are other ways to train collies, of course, but this one works well and fast, involves no compulsion and no retribution, and results in a collie happy in its work, so it is my recommended way.  Oh, and I learned it off Derek Scrimgeour - it's his recommended way too   

Working a collie on sheep is not like obedience or any other discipline I've experienced.  You're a team, partners; you need to rely on each other and trust each other.  You don't give commands, you make suggestions, give invitations.  Your dog may well take your advice, but sometimes it may not.  It may be able to see something from where it is that means your suggestion isn't the best thing to do.  It may not understand how the suggestion you've made is useful in the current situation.  (An experienced collie is always thinking ahead, so if it doesn't understand where the action is leading, it may not be able to see how to do it.  And it always knows what the sheep might do next, and how it will counter that.)

I'm getting a little ahead of the original question now, so I'll curb myself (lie DOWN, Sally) and give you a chance to read and absorb that. 

I was thinking the other day, how owners always look like their animals, and wondering in what way, then, I am like a collie.  (Since I am certainly not fast and wiry.)  I realise, reading this, that, as a collie is obsessed with sheep... 

[SteveHants]

Thanks Sally.


I am intending to take him up the road for some training to the breeder who produced his dam and has good working/trialling dogs. I have also got the Andy Nickless DVD. He does not know his flanking commands yet - when I said I 'sent him out after the ball' I just meant I chucked it.


The thing that had puzzled me, was that on said 'VD the dogs seem to know the commands to stand and to lie down, even when they first saw sheep and knew nothing else, so I have been stopping him quite regularly, for example, when I go to the landrover, I will stand him at the gate and sometimes lie him down too, just to vary the commands, make him wait till I have opened the back and then give him the command to get in the landy (which is 'hup' in my case, I can get him to jump over bales etc with the same command).


I had also contacted the trainer because when I first taught him to lie down, he would come to me and then lie down (because thats what my daft terrier does - I tried to train that out of him, but he's a terrier - what can you do?    ) and he had suggested lying him down in a passageway or path which was fenced on both sides and stopping him coming past you, which he can now do, the ball thing was the first instance Id stopped him away from me in an open space.


I'm tempted to leave it all alone now until he sees sheep which should be fairly soon (Oct - Novemberish, Id thought), he's a big dog and I don't think he will 'lack power' so to speak, especially if he carries on the way he does when he's on the leash around sheep etc. I'm actually wondering if I should pen up some weaned lambs and send him round those.  I have also used him for a bit of yard work in exasperation because I had an instance or two where sheep didn't want to go up the trailer ramp and its funny how a dog outside the pen can make them change their mind about that.....

[colliewoman]

Exactly what Sally says, save me some typing

[Fleecewife]

I found that absolutely fascinating Sally, thank you for posting so much info.  Even though I won't ever be using a proper dog with my sheep it might help with the terrier we do use.  He's basically just keen and has absolutely none of the sheep intelligence which collies have, but I can see that if we keep some words purely for sheep work that may help him not to be so daft at times (of course he's not daft - it's our commands which are confusing him)   

[SallyintNorth]

There are many ways to train collies; some people but by no means most use Derek Scrimgeour's methods.  Most other methods differ greatly, and for the most part you need to stick to one apprpoach, not pick and choose between.

So, Steve, if you've a local trainer you want to use then you probably should ignore pretty much everything I've said, and definitely where it conflicts with what she's telling you.

I'm so glad you enjoyed that, Fleecewife.  I would happily write about collie dogs for hours. 

[omnipeasant]

I agree with everything that sally says, but keep it in perspective. A working collie does not have to be quite as 'proffessional' as a trial dog. Most of all enjoy your relationship with your dog. One of mine is a natural worker and I find leaving her to work is better than constantly correcting her. We get the job done. My other girl is accurate and obedient, but my early enthusiasm for getting it right has meant that she lacks the enthusiasm that her daughter has.

[Old Shep]

Some great reading in these replies!


The only thing I may add is that to my mind throwing balls / toys etc for ANY dog  (not just a working collie) is teaching the dog "as soon as anything flies past you - you chase it ".  Repeated endlessly like collies will have you do is just reinforcing this message.  I see people doing this on the exercise field at agility shows - and the same people then moan that they can't have their dogs loose if there are moving vehicles - because their dogs will chase the vehicles  !! I wonder why ? They have taught them to mindlessly chase.


The only way I will play this game with my dogs whether gundogs or collies is to get them to sit or lie down, I throw the ball, they watch, they get the release command when they look back at me.  Then you are building control  [size=78%] [/size]

[robert waddell]

collies obsessive  never     when we went to view our first collie pup its mother had a path worn in the ground where it constantly ran back and forth   it was a trained working sheep dog    the pup we did buy never showed any signs of this obsession      our second stud dog      both parents were working sheep dogs   does show the same signs  it has to be near whoever is feeding the pigs     if anybody is in its runway you are knocked over    all the rest of the dogs are very happy to look at the piglets through the gaps   one in particular would sit for hours just watching every movement
 
now Sheba our original dog was ball daft   no other dog from her has taken up this trait    her granddaughter likes a toy donought      one pup we sold is trained as a mountain rescue dog  the toy element is essential in this training   as is leaving sheep well alone    although none have been trained as a sheep dog       we did have a pup that we were going to try to train    it was very good at free running and did like a hurl on the quad   but we sold him and he now travels all over britain hill walking

[SteveHants]

There are many ways to train collies; some people but by no means most use Derek Scrimgeour's methods.  Most other methods differ greatly, and for the most part you need to stick to one apprpoach, not pick and choose between.

So, Steve, if you've a local trainer you want to use then you probably should ignore pretty much everything I've said, and definitely where it conflicts with what she's telling you.

I'm so glad you enjoyed that, Fleecewife.  I would happily write about collie dogs for hours. 

He never mentioned balls and I felt a bit daft ringing him to ask, plus I get the feeling he gets a bit sick of my million questions when I do ring; hence the thread.

I'll take your advice and let my wife and daughter play ball with him. I cant stop doing what I have already done with the 'stop' commands, as its probably too late. I'll just have to make the best of it. I reckon ill give the trainer a bell and see if Id do any harm by showing him some sheep. He really is so keen and big, seems a shame not to let him.

[SallyintNorth]

I reckon ill give the trainer a bell and see if Id do any harm by showing him some sheep. He really is so keen and big, seems a shame not to let him.

It's probably the hardest bit to get right...  Initially he may want to 'grip' (bite) and of course you don't want him to.  And you certainly don't want him to decide that's fun, okay, and it become a habit.  But you don't want to curb his enthusiasm, either, so you don't want to be shouting (or worse) at him.  I think I'd keep him on a lead until you have someone experienced with you who can make sure he never gets to the point where he may grip.

[omnipeasant]

Where are you Steve? it is a good idea to have a trainer handy when you first let loose on sheep. I am Scrimgeour trained!! But I think I am too far faway from you.  Don't forget the value of your position regarding dog and sheep. If yougo clockwise the dog should go anti clockwise to balance the sheep. You can distrast from gripping etc by working this balance. Sometimes you just have to  trust your dog.

[doganjo]

Dogs don't understand English - or any other language for that matter, so you can start afresh with your pup, Steve, using French if you have a mind to - but equally using a different set of words from what you have already been using. 

For instance - 'lie down' could now be different intonations of 'FLAT',  'GOFLAT', or anything else you choose. 

Just because one shepherd uses 'lie down' doesn't mean you have to use that too. 

A dog is trained by giving a command when it does something naturally or is made to do something - each time that is repeated it learns and eventually associates the action with your words

[robert waddell]

i have heard two story's of sheep dogs being trained in Gaelic and welsh then sold to new owners  and not working