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Author Topic: The cost of starting with sheep  (Read 19017 times)

Big Light

  • Joined Aug 2011
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Re: The cost of starting with sheep
« Reply #30 on: September 01, 2012, 11:48:48 pm »
No problem

Dougal

  • Joined Jul 2011
  • Port O' Menteith, Stirlingshire
Re: The cost of starting with sheep
« Reply #31 on: September 02, 2012, 12:31:32 am »
I am of the opinion that sheep are like computers, garbage in will give you garbage out! That said it is easy to get carried away when buying and end up spending far more than you need. An example is buying stock rams.
If you just have a few commercial lawnmowers and need a few lambs for the freezer get down the market on a cull ewe sale at this time of year and buy yourself an aged cull stock ram who is ok on his feet, let him have some fun for a couple o months and stick him back in the mart. You'll get roughly what you paid for him and a few lambs on the side. Ewes can be bought with the same frame of mind. Buy ewe lambs and keep them on or buy older ewes. There are a number of tricks to make your pound go so much further while keeping the quality up.
Try to keep a business head on and it'll save a lot of money. Remember that you farm like you are going to live for ever and live like it's the last day you'll ever see!!
It's always worse for someone else, so get your moaning done before they start using up all the available symathy!

SteveHants

  • Joined Aug 2011
Re: The cost of starting with sheep
« Reply #32 on: September 02, 2012, 11:39:56 am »
I'm with the Small Flock can produce quality tups on a regular basis brigade.

buy good sound foundation stock but it can be done and it is nonsense  :dunce: to say other wise.
There are people with commercial breeds that regularly produce 4 or 5 figure tups from flocks of 20 ewes

You can keep records far easier with a smaller flock ( whether mentally or not), you can improve a small flock easier ( In's and outs) you are more likely to know the pedigree and potentially what the sire / dam or grandsire/dam was like especially with rare breeds

"If you are breeding rams, even in a minority breed, I would probably reckon :idea: a flock of about 50 is too small, but might have to do if the breed was rare"  - The point of most rare and minority breeds is that they are rare and in a lot of these breeds, only a few breeders (if any) have flocks of 50 or more - therefore if we followed this hypothesis all breeds would end up in danger of loosing all genetic diversity and potentially having inbreeding issues and is again nonsensical


I had been working on the assumption, given in a post on page 1 by Buffy that this would be a flock comprising 4 ewes, from which she had hoped you might get a saleable tup each year, and I still think if you had a flock of that size and marketed a ram each year as a breeder you would quickly gain a reputation for producing shite, regardless of the rarity of your breed.


The only way really, a small flock owner could compete is if the bred society (and some are doing this now) published growth data from their rams and pooled it for the breed as a whole, so you had a benchmark against which to measure your ram. I would say in most breeds there are meduim sized flocks about, because they seem to suit someone. There are the very rare breeds, but those are an different ballgame and I don't sometimes wonder if they might benefit from some outcrossing to maintain a good gene pool.


Also: I know here are commercial tup breeders who produce show winning tups from flocks of 20 or so, and thankfully, the sheep farming world is moving further and further away from these. Commercial tup showing (Suffolk, Texel, Beltex etc) is almost something seperate to commercial sheep farming now, normally thousands of pounds is passed between top breeders at these sales - its not a world I would reccomend the smallholder joins unless they are sufficiently minted to be the 'newcomer' who pumps his money into this circle for some years before he/she becomes accepted and part of the money circle. In Texels for example; thanks to a drive by the Texel society, there are now hundreds of recorded Texel flocks from which you can choose a ram on-farm or at the 'commercial' auctions. God knows why anybody would pay thousands for a tup when they can get one who performs just as well for hundreds, and sooner or later more and more money-savvy commercial farmers will go down this route, leaving the show ring as a spectacle, but nothing more.

Big Light

  • Joined Aug 2011
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Re: The cost of starting with sheep
« Reply #33 on: September 02, 2012, 12:12:03 pm »
I appreciate the first quote was 4 sheep however, you throw in the arbitrary 50 which you seem to be pedalling away from like an Olympian in the velodrome as for

"There are the very rare breeds, but those are an different ballgame and I don't sometimes wonder if they might benefit from some outcrossing to maintain a good gene pool."


- because then they would be crosses and this is why many of the breeds are rare due to "historical breed improvements". This is why there are breed societies and sheep are registered and inspected to maintain the integrity of the breeds and to allow as wide a breeding selection programme as possible.

woollyval

  • Joined Feb 2008
  • Near Bodmin, Cornwall
    • Val Grainger
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Re: The cost of starting with sheep
« Reply #34 on: September 02, 2012, 01:50:08 pm »
Big light you are spot on....
The farm I mentioned with the place held together with string etc produces some of the best Texel sheep in the world. Small breeders do not = shite I'm afraid. Rare breeds also are not necessarily primitives! Dorset Downs are a rare breed!
Sometimes with a blinkered approach to success equalling money spent some huge mistakes can be made.
What are the motives for owning sheep? pure profit from top commercials, where inputs are high in terms of cake, labour, equipment etc?
Interest....? Tasty food produced from low input sheep where the actual profits can be greater than the tasteless beltex?
Clever marketing and stock skills can mean more money can be made from a flock of shetlands than a flock of Beltex or Suffolks!
I think there are 2 types of farming here....
1. producing top class breeding sheep for sale to other breeders OR 2.meat and wool production....
www.valgrainger.co.uk

Overall winner of the Devon Environmental Business Awards 2009

SteveHants

  • Joined Aug 2011
Re: The cost of starting with sheep
« Reply #35 on: September 02, 2012, 03:35:33 pm »

Edited to add: My quote function is misbehaving, so I have put them in inverted commas and italics.
"I appreciate the first quote was 4 sheep however, you throw in the arbitrary 50 which you seem to be pedalling away from like an Olympian in the velodrome as for

"There are the very rare breeds, but those are an different ballgame and I don't sometimes wonder if they might benefit from some outcrossing to maintain a good gene pool."


- because then they would be crosses and this is why many of the breeds are rare due to "historical breed improvements". This is why there are breed societies and sheep are registered and inspected to maintain the integrity of the breeds and to allow as wide a breeding selection programme as possible."


If you had read my post, I suggested that 50 might be a suitable number to start seriously considering producing minority breed tups, although I still feel this might be to small, but as I said in the post - it might have to do if the breed was suitably rare. This comment is part of a thread relating to costing sheep enterprises and I still feel that if you had 4 ewes, to cost in a saleable tup every year would be foolish. If you had about 50, I feel - you could probably cost in the revenue from a breeding tup each year. My 'rare breed' is Wilts Horns (although I have other sheep) and I only have 20, I would never assume to be gaining the revenue from producing a saleable breeding ram from them each year.

You can cross to improve a small gene pool (and here I truly am talking about very rare breeds) and then backcross to get something that would have 97% of the orignal genes of the breed in 4 generations, maintaining vigour, but that was my suggestion, I doubt many breed societies would do that, although I might think its a good idea, and was an aside to the discussion as a whole anyway.


"Big light you are spot on....The farm I mentioned with the place held together with string etc produces some of the best Texel sheep in the world. Small breeders do not = shite I'm afraid. Rare breeds also are not necessarily primitives! Dorset Downs are a rare breed!"



What I said was - if you had a flock of 4 ewes and you sold a tup as a breeder each year, you would soon get a reputation for producing shite, and I stand by that. I have a small flock, in fact most of us on here have small flocks.

However, as I stated, I wouldn't want anybody doing costings for their new sheep enterprise to project the income from a breeding tup each year, because either they wont get that money because they don't do as well in the shows as they think they might or they will sell on-farm in the first few years and stop getting repeat custom when their customers find better tups elsewhere.

There is no point in over-estimating your potential income when you cost an enterprise, because you are going to either be a) dissapointed, b) skint or c) both, which means you will probably give up with sheep and possibly become a little bitter in the process. I like what I do and I want to encourage people to farm sheep, but you wont do that by promising income that just isn't there. Much better, I find to under-anticipate your revenue, and make sure you can still turn a profit, then if you do make more, it is a pleasant surprise.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2012, 03:41:36 pm by SteveHants »

woollyval

  • Joined Feb 2008
  • Near Bodmin, Cornwall
    • Val Grainger
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Re: The cost of starting with sheep
« Reply #36 on: September 02, 2012, 05:14:17 pm »
There is no point in over-estimating your potential income when you cost an enterprise, because you are going to either be a) dissapointed, b) skint or c) both, which means you will probably give up with sheep and possibly become a little bitter in the process. I like what I do and I want to encourage people to farm sheep, but you wont do that by promising income that just isn't there. Much better, I find to under-anticipate your revenue, and make sure you can still turn a profit, then if you do make more, it is a pleasant surprise

Steve in Hants.....I have kept sheep for 35 years....profitably too.....whilst it is indeed not good to over estimate profit it IS good to advise people that some of the 'received wisdom' about there being no money in sheep except at the top eblex led commercial end is often incorrect.
I have in my life done many things with sheep and wool that people said couldn't be done....and proved them wrong so I do know what I am talking about and not just being over optmistic!
Many 'traditional' approaches to farming are a hard and lonely road, but sometimes thinking along different lines produces different results
[/size] :thumbsup:
www.valgrainger.co.uk

Overall winner of the Devon Environmental Business Awards 2009

Big Light

  • Joined Aug 2011
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Re: The cost of starting with sheep
« Reply #37 on: September 02, 2012, 05:21:02 pm »
Well said  ;) WV

Buffy the eggs layer

  • Joined Jun 2010
Re: The cost of starting with sheep
« Reply #38 on: September 03, 2012, 09:12:44 am »
Hi Guys,
                   please dont get worked up about this one. I posted this thread to give newbies a rough idea of what they might want to consider in terms of price and kit when buying sheep. Not to start a heated debate on wether you can or cant make money from a small flock.
                   I replied to post asking if it was possible to make anything on them and answered based on an assumption of having a very successful lambing which included a good quality ram in the first year. Please note my fingers crossed icon within the text . I didnt say that you would get a prize winning tup that you could sell each year or that you would definatly get 6 lambs and that 3 would certainly be ewes. I simply wanted to illustrate that it was possible with good luck and good managment to break even in your first year.
                  Wether you think this is achievable based on your own experience or totally unrealistic its really not worth getting upset about.
                  Everyones experience is useful and valid in helping members to make their own decisions on this forum and this kind of thread just puts people off contributing. I must admit I feel responcible for starting this discussion and hesitant in posting another thread which is a shame.
                  I would like to appologise to any of you who have been upset by any members posts in this thread and suggest that we draw a line under it and move on.
 I look forward to your posts in future threads
 :hug: 

JFDI

  • Joined Aug 2012
  • Hertfordshire
Re: The cost of starting with sheep
« Reply #39 on: September 03, 2012, 09:31:18 am »
I sort-of understand that a lot of experienced hands are very sensitive at the moment about the forum.  I managed to get slapped on my second post which definitely surprised me but you move on. :-\

I know quite a bit about keeping sheep small scale and I see my much bigger farmer friends working in a very different way.  I go to the EBLEX sessions in our region and our vet runs education evenings so I reckon I understand the issues if not the detail.

I have found the discussion in this thread very interesting and very well informed.  There are different approaches to the same problem and people need to be aware of them.  One size doesn't fit all in sheep.  It took me years to work out the husbandry approach that works for me and I haven't quite got it perfect yet.  But it won't work for the next guy up the hill whose land, flock and ambitions are different.

Perhaps a little bit of heat in a discussion is OK as long as it's not personal?

Sunny day here  :sunshine:

robert waddell

  • Guest
Re: The cost of starting with sheep
« Reply #40 on: September 03, 2012, 10:15:52 am »
the majority of sheep keepers on here have small flocks    either for lawn mowers or for meat
there has always been money in sheep if you have the skills to do it     cast ewes from the hills can have another few years on lowground farms      an abundance of grass on farms some used to give a break crop of rape or even stubble turnips for this purpose    these farmers buy in lambs to fatten
Small scale farmers that have made there money in other  things usually have the small pedigree flocks   that can afford the lottery money to buy these overpriced sheep in the first place    breeding high priced stock is not all it is cracked up to be    you have the entertainment  the showing and the losses   and the kick back when selling high priced stock     don't do this and it will be returned with some fault or complaint      then you have the feeding of them   the majority are all bag fed  indoors  to get the growth  that everybody is clamouring for       it does not matter if it is a tup a bull or a boar  when you buy it you want it to work  not melt away in front of your eyes
 
 
yes costs can be high if you are starting from scratch     but costs can be kept down as well   we started with Shetland crosses  and it was not long to they went  the following year they were replaced  with pedigree sheep this is our second year with  them the first we had one right good tup lamb    no body wanted it so we eat him   this year from two different tups both show winners we have two tup lambs one we have eaten   and the second if we cant get him sold he will be eaten as well   to date have we made money  other than meat they have cost us money
 
but sheep are on a high just now   it is not that long ago that cast ewes were making 50p a head  :farmer:

the great composto

  • Guest
Re: The cost of starting with sheep
« Reply #41 on: September 03, 2012, 10:50:55 am »
Hi Guys,
                   please dont get worked up about this one. I posted this thread to give newbies a rough idea of what they might want to consider in terms of price and kit when buying sheep. Not to start a heated debate on wether you can or cant make money from a small flock.

But it has been a very interesting thread and I like the way it has developed.  hardly heated - unless i am missing something :innocent:
At least its about smallholding not punctuation!

SteveHants

  • Joined Aug 2011
Re: The cost of starting with sheep
« Reply #42 on: September 03, 2012, 12:03:51 pm »
I don't get narked at things people write on the internet - I'm fairly thick skinned and I have had far more negative comments about my approach to sheep farming (outdoor lambing, no routine concs, breeding the wool off Lleyns using Wilts Horns for my maternal line then putting to a terminal sire for grass-fed market lambs) in the real world than I have had on the internet.


However, if someone refers to what I have said as "nonsensical" especially when it appears that they have either not read my post properly or ignored the context in which it was written, you bet your arse I'm going to respond.  ;D

Big Light

  • Joined Aug 2011
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Re: The cost of starting with sheep
« Reply #43 on: September 03, 2012, 05:07:06 pm »
Buffy ,
          like Steve i didn't write it in a heated manner and sorry if you have taken offence at the way it shaped, i think its difficult writing as you cannot express human emotion and then when someone reads it they can make there own interpretation as to your mood  ;D >:( .

Steve  and i and Wooly Val obviously have a difference of opinion and we will have to agree to disagree, but a healthy debate was had with both sides highlighting different issues.

As Steve said you need a little bit of a thick skin, i disagreed with comments he made because my view is that you can successfully breed quality tups from a small flock and i felt others ( whether newbies or not) might take his view in total, so in commenting i gave my view from the other side, i felt some of the things he said didn't make sense so i said so, however i tried to do this by giving explanations / reasoning's and not by personally attacking Steve. I try to add a little humour to my writing but it's an entertainment thing nothing more.

At the end of the day it is up to other members of the forum to take from the debate what they decide is right / best for them from either or both sides of the argument.

I have to agree with Steve re the outdoor lambing and no routine concs much healthier!

Vive la difference as they say in France and Oh the banter as they say in Milngavie!

BL

« Last Edit: September 03, 2012, 05:17:27 pm by Big Light »

Rosemary

  • Joined Oct 2007
  • Barry, Angus, Scotland
    • The Accidental Smallholder
Re: The cost of starting with sheep
« Reply #44 on: September 03, 2012, 05:51:33 pm »
Hmm, this thread is good. I'm thinking about my aims for my little flock and how I can best manage it  :thumbsup: Thanks all - lots of food for thought.

 

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