The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: Buffy the eggs layer on August 22, 2012, 03:28:39 pm
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Hi :wave:
I have recently started with sheep and a friend asked me for a rough idea of how much it cost to start up. I thought that I would put together some rough costings for members as a guide for other newbies who might be interested in working out a budget.
The cost of the sheep vary on age, breed, quality and availability and can cost anything between around £90 and £1,000 but for the purpose of this excercise lets say they cost an average of around £100 - £150 per ewe.
Feed varies again depending on the content but a bag of sheep nuts would cost aprox £8.00 a sack.
Hay is £2.50 to £4.00 a bale dependant on quality or if you are able to get it straight off the field.
Mineral licks are roughly £15 a time and there are a number to choose from.
Parasite control in the form of wormer, Click, Crovect etc is available in smaller quantities for those with only a few sheep but works out more expensive per head that way.
0.8Ltrs Crovect £28.00, Click £53, Maggot oil £13, wormer £50
Foot shears £15 and Alamycin spray £6.00
Mains electric shears for shearing, dagging or trimming - £200 or hand shears £25
Rope halter £5.00 or webbing headcollar and lead £12.00. Shepherds crook £15
Hurdles £24 each, Double Hay Rack £20
Plastic bucket £3.00 Rubber skip bucket £8.00 Water trough £55, Feed trough £25,
Other things to consider are,
Fencing materials either permanent or electric,
Bedding materials in case you bring them indoors to lamb etc
Breeding and Lambing products of which there are loads!
Field shelters, Insurance, Vaccinations, Vets fees, Breed society registration, Books, Courses, Butchery, Transportation.......,
If your lucky like me you will have some of the kit already or be clever enough to make or recycle some bits and pieces that you will need.
I hope that you find this helpful and that it hasn't put you off ;) :sheep:
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The only biiiig variable is the cost of the sheep, our unreg Shetlands are more like £35 than £100, which can make a big difference if you are getting quite a few (and also makes it a little less painful in the pocket if one has to be PTS).
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Costs with Wilts horns (as I remember them):
I bought shearlings which wasn't very clever - if I was doing it again, Id buy old ewes for meat price plus a bit and breed replacements out of them, much cheaper.
This is based on rented ground 5ac summer + 15ac hay aftermaths winter (hay kept for landowners use)
so; 15 Shearlings @ £150 ea = £2250
1 x old ram (still going, actually) = £200
1 X Vetrazin (which I would have expected to last for some years, because they only need a dab at the base of their horns) = £30ish
1 x Combinex = £45
Heptavac: £20
Dosing gun and multi injector: £40
Foot shears: £18
Lambing kit and sundries, inclding antibiotics etc (possibly): £100
Crook: £20
14 Hurdles @ £20 ea = £280
1 x trailer £400 (ebay bargain)
3 x bags of pelleted beet for bucket training = £15
Mins etc; say 4 licks @ 12/lick = £48
TOTAL: £3266
Rent = 1 lamb/yr plus a bit of labour here and there, so I suppose the cost of that was about £20 COP for the lamb and maybe £100s worth of labour.
I wouldn't be buying fencing because it wasn't my land, but I have been known to put up the odd fence here and there. All land was watered, but when I have had land that isnt, I have made drinkers from half plastic barrels at a grand cost of £0. I loaned my ram to other Wilts Horn owners for hay and so I covered all my forage like that.
If I was a pedant, I could put the cost of the landrover and insurances etc in there, but I had it already.
The reason I got the land was that it was too small for a commercial sheep farmer to be bothering with to come and put animals on, so it wasn't really worth any rent as such, except for horse paddocks, which is what they had done, but after years of that the place was looking a bit of a mess, to say the least.
With wooled sheep you could get away with buying hand shears for dagging and getting a shearer, and the price of the wool would pay for the shearer if you had enough sheep, but wouldn't pay for click etc - so be wary, wool, unless you have some artisan outlet for it is still very much a loss-making enterprise.
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This'd be very helpful! I'm currently starting out and get asked this by my Dad on a regular basis (Aka daily) and I can tell him if I think about it but sometimes I forget things. With several people doing it, things one single person might forget are included!
I start sheep-stuff-shopping in a few weeks, including all equipment. Rather sad that it's more exciting than, say, clothes shopping for me!
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Steve - whats the going exchcnage rate re ram:bales of hay? I have hay, but no ram so thats a good thought for me this Autumn. Thanks for sharing costs all.
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If it was money, Id want £60 to borrow the ram, and bales have been silly money till this year...a fiver or so - I think I took about 50 bales last year, so somewhere between retail and production cost.
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I start sheep-stuff-shopping in a few weeks, including all equipment. Rather sad that it's more exciting than, say, clothes shopping for me!
Hi Sophie :wave: Not at all sad :D - I love buying sheepie things too. Always on the lookout through local ads and e-bay for secondhand equipment. It doesn't always have to be pristine as I know the sheep don't care, and then you can spend more on the important things like vaccines, good food and medicine. Good luck with your sheep venture :thumbsup:
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Its really good to see some of the real costs of starting out but it would also be nice to see the balance of where the expected income would offset those costs.
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That will all depend on your lambing percentage and ewe replcement rate.
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Hi TGC,
I put the costings together just as a bit of a rough guide for people stating out with an intention to breed from a small registered hobby flock. That may not be the quickest way to turn a buck however.
If you wanted to keep a small flock then what you would make would depend greatly on whether the sheep were registered and what lambs were produced.
So an equally rough guide would be that if you breed from 4 ewes and were lucky enough to get 6 good lambs, 3 ewes and 3 rams. Then you sold the registered ewe lambs for the price that you paid for their mothers and sold 2 of the ram lambs for meat and one as proven prize winning :trophy: Tup then you might just be lucky enough to cover your initial outlay. :fc: :-\
However a farmer friend of mine recently told me that the easiest way to make money out of sheep is to buy in commercial store lambs (say texel crosses) . He told me that he need to buy a breed that fattens quickly and cheaply for a chep price at the sales. With the costs of wormer, vacs, feed...etc he needs to make £27 per sheep just to cover his costs when he sells them on for meat at auction later in the year.
A small holder friend of mine also tells me that the cost of butchering and slaughtering her ram lambs was also £27 per lamb through a local butcher.
And a local hobby breeder tels me that he expects to get £80 for a butchered lamb by selling to friends and reletives.
I aim to try and break even with my sheep and chickens as I see it as a hobby with a benefit of producing food and going some way to paying for its self. Having said that, choosing breeds that bring me pleasure is more important to me than profit. So a more commercially minded member may be able to give you a better idea of how to make a few quid.
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You'd never breed a saleable tup each year off that number of ewes, sorry.
You'd be lucky if you got a decent ram once every 25 years or so, and even then, unless you kept growth records, you wouldn't have a benchmark to see how good a tup he really was.
When I started with Wilts Horns I had 15 and I wouldn't have considered selling a tup for breeding - it wouldn't have taken you long to get a bad reputation and the world of Wilts Horns isnt so big that it wouldn't have stuck with you for a long time.
If you are breeding rams, even in a minority breed, I would probably reckon a flock of about 50 is too small, but might have to do if the breed was rare. Of a commercial breed you are talking hundreds, minumum.
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It is not all about cost. I have broken even on my first year, discounting fencing. I have learnt where to cut costs. Apart from this the joy of sitting in a field with a dozen relaxed sheep chewing the cud is worth it.
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Oh Landie... if only there were single men like you in Somerset! LOLOL!
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Thanks Steve,
Thats really helpful to know. I nearly bought some wiltshire horns, really glad I didnt now.
I know people who have produced tups from small minority breed flocks and sold them on to hobby breeders for a few hundred quid but I must admit they were not Wiltshires and they didn't produce one a year.
Good luck with the wilts hope you are able to have enough ewes ( and enough years) to produce a quality ram one day :fc:
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Cheaper to trade the use of a tup. I swap pork for the use of McBlack, the dear of him, though now I have a daughter of his in my little flock I will have to think again, maybe buy a tup lamb, use him then eat him :-\ :-\
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I keep Lleyns.
The cost of a tup hire this year is £4 per ewe, up to 25 ewes.
The farmer I hire mine off has about 1000 ewes and over 1500 lambs.
From the male lambs he will select and re-select untill he finishes with the best of them, usually about 4 at the most.
The rams he has bought in are never less than £1500 each, so hireing a ram lamb from him is cheap at £4 a ewe, as you don't need to keep it all year round.
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I keep Lleyns.
The cost of a tup hire this year is £4 per ewe, up to 25 ewes.
The farmer I hire mine off has about 1000 ewes and over 1500 lambs.
From the male lambs he will select and re-select untill he finishes with the best of them, usually about 4 at the most.
The rams he has bought in are never less than £1500 each, so hireing a ram lamb from him is cheap at £4 a ewe, as you don't need to keep it all year round.
You'd hope if he has 1000 breeding Lleyn ewes, he'd have 1800 lambs or so, unless he negative flushes.
That is kind of my case in point about tup breeding - wasn't anything to do with Wiltshire Horns per se - just the size of flock you'd need to manage to find a tup you'd want to use.
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Wow, how do you tell 4 good ones from 100's that wouldnt make it as tups ??? Hats off. I'd love a lesson in sorting! I was thinking of buying a ram lamb/yearling at the beulah sales (not one that is being sold as a ram) this autumns and trying him as a tup - but that sounds like it might be folly? Such a lot to learn!
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Apart from this the joy of sitting in a field with a dozen relaxed sheep chewing the cud is worth it.
That's what it's about for me too. Whether I'll feel quite so mellow when it's a freezing, sleeting day in January remains to be seen of course......
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Wow, how do you tell 4 good ones from 100's that wouldnt make it as tups ??? Hats off. I'd love a lesson in sorting! I was thinking of buying a ram lamb/yearling at the beulah sales (not one that is being sold as a ram) this autumns and trying him as a tup - but that sounds like it might be folly? Such a lot to learn!
Litter size, weight at weaning, muscle scan, fat scan etc..... These figs can the be compared to the performance of the entire crop of ram lambs for the entire breed (or those breeders recording ebvs). You can then go off shape etc. Of course some of the rare breeds (and commercials too, come to that) dont use ebvs...so youd have to compare the growth of your ram lambs to the others in your flock and then factor in his litter size....
Point is, no matter how rare your breed - a flock of six wouldnt give you a saleable tup unless by massive fluke (of course, if you had ebvs for them you could compare, but prob wouldnt be worth the cost of muscle scans etc)
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I have to disagree on the subject of producing saleable tups from small flocks. I think you will find that many producers of top quality tups actually run a flock within a flock and it is from the sub flock of top quality ewes that they select the tups they put forward for sale. I do know that one commercial flock that regularly wins major awards and achieves top prices for tups (and ewes) selects from a group of 20 ewes. You need to know your bloodlines and have a very clear idea of where you are going to achieve this. And this breeder is involved in a minority breed that does not use ebvs. But he is far from the only one I know using the sub flock approach.
As for selecting a prospective tup try to go and see the ones you are interested in the field first if you can. A prospective tup should shout at you in the field that he is special. Outline, topline and that unidentifiable factor call it wow factor or presence or what you will but you will know when you find it. Sometimes hands on examination will burst the bubble but your first reaction is worth trusting to develop a shortlist.
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I think that unless you are very skilled and have purchased accordingly, you are unlikely to have a flock of 20 perfect ewes. I'm sure he's chosen those 20 best ones from his 200 other ewes over time. The greater your flock numbers the higher the chance that you will have that perfect ewe or ram.
I've hired rams before and paid £5 per lamb born - so that's performance related pay which is good :). I wouldn't buy a ram at a sale. I think you need to see him on farm, and see his siblings and parents (and offspring too if applicable).
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I paid £50 to buy our old Shetland tup and he gave me 3 crops of nice lambs before he was PTS. This year I will be crossing to a Cheviot and am using ram lambs (two swapped over at half time in case one non performer) and this will be a loan, the cost - a ewe lamb from the resulting 'output'. Suits both parties well.
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I think that unless you are very skilled and have purchased accordingly, you are unlikely to have a flock of 20 perfect ewes. I'm sure he's chosen those 20 best ones from his 200 other ewes over time. The greater your flock numbers the higher the chance that you will have that perfect ewe or ram.
I've hired rams before and paid £5 per lamb born - so that's performance related pay which is good :) . I wouldn't buy a ram at a sale. I think you need to see him on farm, and see his siblings and parents (and offspring too if applicable).
Well exactly - what he is doing is looking at his top performers out of 200. So; he'll put his best ram to those 20, and keep the best ewes as replacements, which will mean he has an even better subflock next year and so on, he may then expand his 'pool' of best performers that he selects rams from and so on. And should a good ram crop up from amongst the rest, well....
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Ooh crikey, I'm glad that I only keep 'pet' sheep. My 5 have cost me a bottle of home made wine, were mainly reared off of the excess goats milk, we had the heptavacP in the fridge for the goats anyway oh and a bag or 2 of creep. Luckily fencing already done.
We'd never have been in a position to start a breeding flock for financial reasons.
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Read this thread with great interest having kept sheep for an awfully long time! I think its as expensive as you want to make it!
So you could go for say 10 fantastically expensive shearling ewes from a top flock plus a ram from another top flock....and whether pedigree rare or minority breed or commercial breed the expense is going to be eye watering.....and even more eye watering for more!
So you could buy 10 old cast ewes from a top flock....will still have a lambing or two in them but you will pay peanuts comparatively and get ewes that have proven themselves in a good flock. Same for a ram, a good proven chap in the twilight of his career!.....you then can breed your own 'top quality' flock
Equipment.....yes you can go and buy thousands of pounds of shiny new stuff, but some of the smartest Texel sheep I have ever seen including 4 royal show champion rams in the same field was a small farm literally held together with baler!!! Their stock/grassland management was amazing...their equipment basic and involved lots of bits of pallet....!
Making a profit is very very possible.....my sheep have always been in profit and I have kept everything from longwools to minature sheep and plenty of commercials.
Steve in hants.....Oh yes it is possible to breed top tups from a small flock....its part of the stock skills that you aquire! I sold a wensleydale ram lamb several years ago and he went on to win at every show he went to as an adult....and I only kept a few wensleys for fun at the time (but again based on some old ewes and an elderly ram I aquired in a job lot of sheep)
Its possible to be profitable from commercial meat lambs, esp as the price is good at the moment, but its also perfectly possible to be profitable from specialost sheep....esp ones with coloured or long wool as skins from these sheep sell for amazing amounts
When it comes to feed bills.....simple answer is do not run too many sheep for your land......and too many smallholders have too many animals :-\
Vets bills can be reduced to minimal with good stock management and learning from other experienced people BEFORE expensive mistakes are made.
Medicines.....again mostly over used and not understood properly which is sad....and incredibly expensive.....make sure you know your wormers, fly treatments etc.
Sheep of all breeds can cost little, be kept on a budget and can make a profit but it requires resourcefullness and knowledge....plus a little bit of luck
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I think we've overlooked the 53p each for packets of Rich Tea biscuits! The lambs don't understand them at all, but my elderly GFD ewe will stand patient as you like for foot treatment, Crovecting and dagging etc. provided there is a steady supply of biscuit morsels going in at the front. Worth their weight in gold as I could never turn her! :yum:
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Ha ha Blackbird, ;D
I too have discovered the sheep charming power of the Rich tea biscuit but if you are paying 53p for them then you havent discovered Aldi! ;)
I'm with you on this one one Woolly val but in the words of Henry Ford...,
"If you think you can or you think you can't, you are probably right"
If you dont belive that something will work for you then it wont. Equally if you belive its possible then you will find a way to achive it.
Many of us have to start off with breeding stock that is either all that we can afford or the only ones that show breeders are prepared to part with and still manage to produce saleable stock of good type and quality. A combination of good managment and good breeding as well as a little good fortune makes all the difference.
However there are clearly many breeders who do not share this experience and struggle to make their hobby pay.
The costings that I listed inthe start of this thread were simply to give newbies a guide to possible expense. As for proffit however, well thats clearly a little harder to estimate. :-\
The fact that some members do make their sheep pay though, will hopefully encourage others to find ways to do the same. :sheep:
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I'm with the Small Flock can produce quality tups on a regular basis brigade.
I have worked flocks of 3,000 ewes down to flocks of 12 ewes and it is in fact easier to know the strengths and qualities of your animals with the smaller flock and if you are happy enough to split a small flock to 2 or more tups then you can maintain your genetic diversity and match qualities you desire. You obviously need to buy good sound foundation stock but it can be done and it is nonsense :dunce: to say other wise.
There are people with commercial breeds that regularly produce 4 or 5 figure tups from flocks of 20 ewes
You can keep records far easier with a smaller flock ( whether mentally or not), you can improve a small flock easier ( In's and outs) you are more likely to know the pedigree and potentially what the sire / dam or grandsire/dam was like especially with rare breeds
"If you are breeding rams, even in a minority breed, I would probably reckon :idea: a flock of about 50 is too small, but might have to do if the breed was rare" - The point of most rare and minority breeds is that they are rare and in a lot of these breeds, only a few breeders (if any) have flocks of 50 or more - therefore if we followed this hypothesis all breeds would end up in danger of loosing all genetic diversity and potentially having inbreeding issues and is again nonsensical
"I think that unless you are very skilled and have purchased accordingly, you are unlikely to have a flock of 20 perfect ewes" - in respect of this nobody really has a perfect ewe ( even the champion sheep will have a fault the shepherd knows about ) but the being skilled and purchase accordingly is just being a good stockman/shepherd and this skill is not outwith the reach of most should they want to achieve it. You have to be selective about what you keep whole but it's just about being true/honest to the breed
This is the same with most stock, i breed top quality birds , i don't need thousands of birds for that i can select a small breeding pen! and produce a champion quality bird.
At the end of the day it suits some people with a higher than average quality small flock to produce tups. There is the need to be able to contain them separately which may be more difficult for the small holder but if by producing / selling 2 or 3 tups / tup lambs from the small flock the person can try to break even or make a profit then the market at the end of the day will be the judge!
Anyone wishing to follow this path should not be dissuaded by others comments but if starting out they should buy the best stock they can afford - better to buy 2 quality ewes than 6 average sheep and build up thereafter
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That makes a lot of sense and was easy to understand too. Thank you.
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No problem
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I am of the opinion that sheep are like computers, garbage in will give you garbage out! That said it is easy to get carried away when buying and end up spending far more than you need. An example is buying stock rams.
If you just have a few commercial lawnmowers and need a few lambs for the freezer get down the market on a cull ewe sale at this time of year and buy yourself an aged cull stock ram who is ok on his feet, let him have some fun for a couple o months and stick him back in the mart. You'll get roughly what you paid for him and a few lambs on the side. Ewes can be bought with the same frame of mind. Buy ewe lambs and keep them on or buy older ewes. There are a number of tricks to make your pound go so much further while keeping the quality up.
Try to keep a business head on and it'll save a lot of money. Remember that you farm like you are going to live for ever and live like it's the last day you'll ever see!!
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I'm with the Small Flock can produce quality tups on a regular basis brigade.
buy good sound foundation stock but it can be done and it is nonsense :dunce: to say other wise.
There are people with commercial breeds that regularly produce 4 or 5 figure tups from flocks of 20 ewes
You can keep records far easier with a smaller flock ( whether mentally or not), you can improve a small flock easier ( In's and outs) you are more likely to know the pedigree and potentially what the sire / dam or grandsire/dam was like especially with rare breeds
"If you are breeding rams, even in a minority breed, I would probably reckon :idea: a flock of about 50 is too small, but might have to do if the breed was rare" - The point of most rare and minority breeds is that they are rare and in a lot of these breeds, only a few breeders (if any) have flocks of 50 or more - therefore if we followed this hypothesis all breeds would end up in danger of loosing all genetic diversity and potentially having inbreeding issues and is again nonsensical
I had been working on the assumption, given in a post on page 1 by Buffy that this would be a flock comprising 4 ewes, from which she had hoped you might get a saleable tup each year, and I still think if you had a flock of that size and marketed a ram each year as a breeder you would quickly gain a reputation for producing shite, regardless of the rarity of your breed.
The only way really, a small flock owner could compete is if the bred society (and some are doing this now) published growth data from their rams and pooled it for the breed as a whole, so you had a benchmark against which to measure your ram. I would say in most breeds there are meduim sized flocks about, because they seem to suit someone. There are the very rare breeds, but those are an different ballgame and I don't sometimes wonder if they might benefit from some outcrossing to maintain a good gene pool.
Also: I know here are commercial tup breeders who produce show winning tups from flocks of 20 or so, and thankfully, the sheep farming world is moving further and further away from these. Commercial tup showing (Suffolk, Texel, Beltex etc) is almost something seperate to commercial sheep farming now, normally thousands of pounds is passed between top breeders at these sales - its not a world I would reccomend the smallholder joins unless they are sufficiently minted to be the 'newcomer' who pumps his money into this circle for some years before he/she becomes accepted and part of the money circle. In Texels for example; thanks to a drive by the Texel society, there are now hundreds of recorded Texel flocks from which you can choose a ram on-farm or at the 'commercial' auctions. God knows why anybody would pay thousands for a tup when they can get one who performs just as well for hundreds, and sooner or later more and more money-savvy commercial farmers will go down this route, leaving the show ring as a spectacle, but nothing more.
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I appreciate the first quote was 4 sheep however, you throw in the arbitrary 50 which you seem to be pedalling away from like an Olympian in the velodrome as for
"There are the very rare breeds, but those are an different ballgame and I don't sometimes wonder if they might benefit from some outcrossing to maintain a good gene pool."
- because then they would be crosses and this is why many of the breeds are rare due to "historical breed improvements". This is why there are breed societies and sheep are registered and inspected to maintain the integrity of the breeds and to allow as wide a breeding selection programme as possible.
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Big light you are spot on....
The farm I mentioned with the place held together with string etc produces some of the best Texel sheep in the world. Small breeders do not = shite I'm afraid. Rare breeds also are not necessarily primitives! Dorset Downs are a rare breed!
Sometimes with a blinkered approach to success equalling money spent some huge mistakes can be made.
What are the motives for owning sheep? pure profit from top commercials, where inputs are high in terms of cake, labour, equipment etc?
Interest....? Tasty food produced from low input sheep where the actual profits can be greater than the tasteless beltex?
Clever marketing and stock skills can mean more money can be made from a flock of shetlands than a flock of Beltex or Suffolks!
I think there are 2 types of farming here....
1. producing top class breeding sheep for sale to other breeders OR 2.meat and wool production....
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Edited to add: My quote function is misbehaving, so I have put them in inverted commas and italics.
"I appreciate the first quote was 4 sheep however, you throw in the arbitrary 50 which you seem to be pedalling away from like an Olympian in the velodrome as for
"There are the very rare breeds, but those are an different ballgame and I don't sometimes wonder if they might benefit from some outcrossing to maintain a good gene pool."
- because then they would be crosses and this is why many of the breeds are rare due to "historical breed improvements". This is why there are breed societies and sheep are registered and inspected to maintain the integrity of the breeds and to allow as wide a breeding selection programme as possible."
If you had read my post, I suggested that 50 might be a suitable number to start seriously considering producing minority breed tups, although I still feel this might be to small, but as I said in the post - it might have to do if the breed was suitably rare. This comment is part of a thread relating to costing sheep enterprises and I still feel that if you had 4 ewes, to cost in a saleable tup every year would be foolish. If you had about 50, I feel - you could probably cost in the revenue from a breeding tup each year. My 'rare breed' is Wilts Horns (although I have other sheep) and I only have 20, I would never assume to be gaining the revenue from producing a saleable breeding ram from them each year.
You can cross to improve a small gene pool (and here I truly am talking about very rare breeds) and then backcross to get something that would have 97% of the orignal genes of the breed in 4 generations, maintaining vigour, but that was my suggestion, I doubt many breed societies would do that, although I might think its a good idea, and was an aside to the discussion as a whole anyway.
"Big light you are spot on....The farm I mentioned with the place held together with string etc produces some of the best Texel sheep in the world. Small breeders do not = shite I'm afraid. Rare breeds also are not necessarily primitives! Dorset Downs are a rare breed!"
What I said was - if you had a flock of 4 ewes and you sold a tup as a breeder each year, you would soon get a reputation for producing shite, and I stand by that. I have a small flock, in fact most of us on here have small flocks.
However, as I stated, I wouldn't want anybody doing costings for their new sheep enterprise to project the income from a breeding tup each year, because either they wont get that money because they don't do as well in the shows as they think they might or they will sell on-farm in the first few years and stop getting repeat custom when their customers find better tups elsewhere.
There is no point in over-estimating your potential income when you cost an enterprise, because you are going to either be a) dissapointed, b) skint or c) both, which means you will probably give up with sheep and possibly become a little bitter in the process. I like what I do and I want to encourage people to farm sheep, but you wont do that by promising income that just isn't there. Much better, I find to under-anticipate your revenue, and make sure you can still turn a profit, then if you do make more, it is a pleasant surprise.
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There is no point in over-estimating your potential income when you cost an enterprise, because you are going to either be a) dissapointed, b) skint or c) both, which means you will probably give up with sheep and possibly become a little bitter in the process. I like what I do and I want to encourage people to farm sheep, but you wont do that by promising income that just isn't there. Much better, I find to under-anticipate your revenue, and make sure you can still turn a profit, then if you do make more, it is a pleasant surprise
Steve in Hants.....I have kept sheep for 35 years....profitably too.....whilst it is indeed not good to over estimate profit it IS good to advise people that some of the 'received wisdom' about there being no money in sheep except at the top eblex led commercial end is often incorrect.
I have in my life done many things with sheep and wool that people said couldn't be done....and proved them wrong so I do know what I am talking about and not just being over optmistic!
Many 'traditional' approaches to farming are a hard and lonely road, but sometimes thinking along different lines produces different results [/size] :thumbsup:
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Well said ;) WV
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Hi Guys,
please dont get worked up about this one. I posted this thread to give newbies a rough idea of what they might want to consider in terms of price and kit when buying sheep. Not to start a heated debate on wether you can or cant make money from a small flock.
I replied to post asking if it was possible to make anything on them and answered based on an assumption of having a very successful lambing which included a good quality ram in the first year. Please note my fingers crossed icon within the text . I didnt say that you would get a prize winning tup that you could sell each year or that you would definatly get 6 lambs and that 3 would certainly be ewes. I simply wanted to illustrate that it was possible with good luck and good managment to break even in your first year.
Wether you think this is achievable based on your own experience or totally unrealistic its really not worth getting upset about.
Everyones experience is useful and valid in helping members to make their own decisions on this forum and this kind of thread just puts people off contributing. I must admit I feel responcible for starting this discussion and hesitant in posting another thread which is a shame.
I would like to appologise to any of you who have been upset by any members posts in this thread and suggest that we draw a line under it and move on.
I look forward to your posts in future threads
:hug:
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I sort-of understand that a lot of experienced hands are very sensitive at the moment about the forum. I managed to get slapped on my second post which definitely surprised me but you move on. :-\
I know quite a bit about keeping sheep small scale and I see my much bigger farmer friends working in a very different way. I go to the EBLEX sessions in our region and our vet runs education evenings so I reckon I understand the issues if not the detail.
I have found the discussion in this thread very interesting and very well informed. There are different approaches to the same problem and people need to be aware of them. One size doesn't fit all in sheep. It took me years to work out the husbandry approach that works for me and I haven't quite got it perfect yet. But it won't work for the next guy up the hill whose land, flock and ambitions are different.
Perhaps a little bit of heat in a discussion is OK as long as it's not personal?
Sunny day here :sunshine:
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the majority of sheep keepers on here have small flocks either for lawn mowers or for meat
there has always been money in sheep if you have the skills to do it cast ewes from the hills can have another few years on lowground farms an abundance of grass on farms some used to give a break crop of rape or even stubble turnips for this purpose these farmers buy in lambs to fatten
Small scale farmers that have made there money in other things usually have the small pedigree flocks that can afford the lottery money to buy these overpriced sheep in the first place breeding high priced stock is not all it is cracked up to be you have the entertainment the showing and the losses and the kick back when selling high priced stock don't do this and it will be returned with some fault or complaint then you have the feeding of them the majority are all bag fed indoors to get the growth that everybody is clamouring for it does not matter if it is a tup a bull or a boar when you buy it you want it to work not melt away in front of your eyes
yes costs can be high if you are starting from scratch but costs can be kept down as well we started with Shetland crosses and it was not long to they went the following year they were replaced with pedigree sheep this is our second year with them the first we had one right good tup lamb no body wanted it so we eat him this year from two different tups both show winners we have two tup lambs one we have eaten and the second if we cant get him sold he will be eaten as well to date have we made money other than meat they have cost us money
but sheep are on a high just now it is not that long ago that cast ewes were making 50p a head :farmer:
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Hi Guys,
please dont get worked up about this one. I posted this thread to give newbies a rough idea of what they might want to consider in terms of price and kit when buying sheep. Not to start a heated debate on wether you can or cant make money from a small flock.
But it has been a very interesting thread and I like the way it has developed. hardly heated - unless i am missing something :innocent:
At least its about smallholding not punctuation!
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I don't get narked at things people write on the internet - I'm fairly thick skinned and I have had far more negative comments about my approach to sheep farming (outdoor lambing, no routine concs, breeding the wool off Lleyns using Wilts Horns for my maternal line then putting to a terminal sire for grass-fed market lambs) in the real world than I have had on the internet.
However, if someone refers to what I have said as "nonsensical" especially when it appears that they have either not read my post properly or ignored the context in which it was written, you bet your arse I'm going to respond. ;D
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Buffy ,
like Steve i didn't write it in a heated manner and sorry if you have taken offence at the way it shaped, i think its difficult writing as you cannot express human emotion and then when someone reads it they can make there own interpretation as to your mood ;D >:( .
Steve and i and Wooly Val obviously have a difference of opinion and we will have to agree to disagree, but a healthy debate was had with both sides highlighting different issues.
As Steve said you need a little bit of a thick skin, i disagreed with comments he made because my view is that you can successfully breed quality tups from a small flock and i felt others ( whether newbies or not) might take his view in total, so in commenting i gave my view from the other side, i felt some of the things he said didn't make sense so i said so, however i tried to do this by giving explanations / reasoning's and not by personally attacking Steve. I try to add a little humour to my writing but it's an entertainment thing nothing more.
At the end of the day it is up to other members of the forum to take from the debate what they decide is right / best for them from either or both sides of the argument.
I have to agree with Steve re the outdoor lambing and no routine concs much healthier!
Vive la difference as they say in France and Oh the banter as they say in Milngavie!
BL
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Hmm, this thread is good. I'm thinking about my aims for my little flock and how I can best manage it :thumbsup: Thanks all - lots of food for thought.
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What I said was - if you had a flock of 4 ewes and you sold a tup as a breeder each year, you would soon get a reputation for producing shite, and I stand by that. I have a small flock, in fact most of us on here have small flocks.
(Sorry folks - for some reason you have to scroll down the blue bit above.)
While I believe that everyone has a right to their opinion Steve, I would say that if that is really what you have found out from experience, then either the Wiltshire Horn Breed Society is trying to perpetuate some very strange views or you may possibly have some problems with your own breeding stock which has led to you producing "shite."
There is absolutely no reason why any small breeder, with good quality breeding stock, should not, most years, produce at least one ram worth registering and selling at a premium.
You surely understand the hierarchy in any breed society. You have the elite breeders at the top, who have taken years to build up their reputation and who will get the top prices, often into £1,000s, for their stock. Under these are other less known breeders who achieve lower, but still very attractive prices, and so it goes down the ladder, till you get to the commercial breeders at the bottom who are still producing quality stock capable of fetching a good premium above meat prices. This is probably the level that most people with small flocks are aiming at. And I am sure this is the sort of thing Buffy was referring to when she talked about hoping to sell a good ram lamb for breeding each year.
From my own experience, this is perfectly possible. I have read what you said many times and I cannot understand why you should think that breeding from a small flock = breeding "shite." Just as rubbish produces rubbish, so good stock will give you good offspring. Whether you have 4 or 400 does not alter the genetic potential..
I started many years ago with 6 pedigree, good quality Ryeland ewes, and an excellent aged ram (costing £25).
Each year I sold at least 1 registered ram lamb for breeding at about twice what it would have fetched for meat. Back fat measurements, muscle scanning etc are entirely irrelevant at this level. A well grown, good shaped lamb, whose parents can be seen stands for itself. I eventually went out of Ryelands because of problems with dog worrying. I sold all my stock at the breed sale at York and got the top price for one of my shearlings, over stock from breeders who had won at the Yorkshire show.
So Buffy's thoughts and aspirations are perfectly reasonable and attainable.
Of course if your stock management is poor then your animals won't reach their full potential. But I would think the main reason people use this forum is to ensure they are doing everything as well as possible for their animals.
So I'm sorry Steve, that your small flock of Wiltshire Horns only produced "shite." Maybe the breed just wasn't right for you. But I can assure you, that with good management and husbandry you can produce a reasonable return (not a fortune :trophy: ) from a small starter flock of Ryelands. :sunshine:
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I've had a bit of a think how to respond to that post and I an only say this;
The original question on the thread was about flock costings, and I had said (and I stick by this) that it is better to underestimate than overestimate your potential income, because if you can balance the books in a bad year then good years are a bonus.
I had never intended to become a ram breeder anyway, and nor did I say my stock was 'shite'. However, if I ever did decide to sell a ram, it would be privately, and I am aware of the heirachy in some breed societies, which is why I'm not their biggest fan to put it mildly. Again, I think I advised that were I new to buying rams I would buy off farm, because producing rams should not be all about the point of sale.
Were I to sell a ram, it would be largeley within the ethos of the breed and therefore would have these attributes as a bare minimum (aside from the usual own limbs/teeth, pair of eyes etc):
1) Would have been born unaided (and I feel that this is a welfare issue as it goes - assisted births are more stressful than natural ones and the genetics should not be passed on)
2) Would have got up/sucked unaided
3) Would be one of twins (unless the customer specifically wanted a single, maybe to put to a very fecund breed)
4) Would never have gone off its feet/limped
5) Would have done off it mothers milk/grass and not needed concentrate feeding
6) Would have grown faster than its counterparts
I know not all breeds have the same 'attributes' as Wilts horns and therefore different things are important to breeders. I would say that a ram of any breed that did not have attributes 1, 2, 4 and 6 is not worth breeding from.
and, when I have the kit probably:
7) A high natural worm resistance
I do tend to do rams harder than flock ewes, with the possibility of a sale in the back of my mind, Id rather I discovered any errors than a customer did.
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This is a great thread with some thoughtful and considered ideas. It has helped and informed me anyway.
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Like I said Steve, everyone's entitled to their own opinion. But I don't think it really gives a true impression to a beginner for you to say FOUR TIMES, as if it's gospel, that someone with a small flock will only produce shite rams and get a bad reputation if they sell them for breeding. This is patently untrue from my knowledge and experience (unless you are suggesting I'm lying.) And I don't understand where you have got this strong opinion from, if it's not from your own stock.
Obviously from other posts, you have considerable knowledge and experience of sheep, so please don't think I'm trying to discredit your views. However, if I, as a small farmer, am selecting a new ram - as I am at present about to buy a fresh Suffolk tup - the main thing I am looking for is conformation and size.
The other 6 of the 7 points you mentioned are mainly (but not entirely) environmental or irrelevant, in my opinion, though obviously may be important to others.
Let me explain:
Point 1. Easy birth. Could be important, especially in a breed like Texel, but not of greatest relevence in Ryelands, which I believe Buffy keeps. A difficult birth is often due to overfeeding the ewe in late pregnancy. (Hence scanning to determine number of lambs and state of pregnancy.) I wouldn't turn down a fantastic ram lamb because it was born by caesarian. But I would be careful of overfeeding the ewes carrying its offspring.
2. Quickly up on its feet. Again any problems here are more due to condition of ewe, extreme weather, or other external factors. But if you have a thin skinned breed, eg Bleu du Maine, you would not expect them to lamb outside in a gale and sub zero temps, and if you did, the lambs would probably never get up. That doesn't mean they are no good - just in the wrong environment.
3. Twins are due to multiple ovulation by the ewe, and can be affected by her plane of nutrition at tupping. It has NOTHING to do with the ram, unless you believe he normally only produces one sperm.
4. Limping. Environmental due to bacteria. They aren't born with scald or foot rot.
5. Good growth with no concentrates. If you are selling a ram, you show it at its best. To get the optimum price for a ram lamb it needs to be big. That generally means born early and fed concentrates to achieve maximum size at point of sale. If you don't feed your ram lamb to achieve optimum growth, you will lose your sale to the breeder who does.
6. Fast growing and therefore big for its age. Yes - this I agree with. But the seller will ensure optimum growth, again by feeding concentrates.
7. High Worm resistance. I do not wish to insult you by saying that this is rubbish. (So I will think it but not say it :sunshine: .) There is no tool available to the smallholder to test worm resistance. You can test for worms, but if you don't find many this doesn't prove the sheep have a genetic resistance. It just proves your husbandry is right and you're keeping the worms under control. Under different conditions the same sheep could be riddled with worms. To achieve optimum growth lambs must be kept as worm free as possible. Either by moving frequently onto clean pasture or worming regularly or grazing with a different species, or any combination of the 3. It has nothing to do with breeding so can not be cited as a selling point.
Finally, Steve, you say that you never intended to become a ram breeder,. . . and if you ever decide to sell a ram. . . This suggests that you never have, so with all due respect, I don't think you have the experience or knowledge to advise people who may be thinking of selling breeding stock. You say that you do your rams harder than your flock ewes, and again - this is NOT how you produce good rams for sale. If I buy a ram I want to see it at its best. I'm not going to pay a premium for one that has had to struggle to achieve a mediocre size.And if this is how the people you know treat their rams that they aim to sell, then it's no wonder that you have such a poor opinion of small scale ram breeders.
But please - I'm not trying to insult you or rubbish your views - I have read many of your posts which are helpful and knowledgeable.
But on the subject of producing ram lambs for breeding I can assure you there are better ways than those that you have been advised of.
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1. Easy birth. Could be important, especially in a breed like Texel, but not of greatest relevence in Ryelands, which I believe Buffy keeps. A difficult birth is often due to overfeeding the ewe in late pregnancy. (Hence scanning to determine number of lambs and state of pregnancy.) I wouldn't turn down a fantastic ram lamb because it was born by caesarian. But I would be careful of overfeeding the ewes carrying its offspring.
3. Twins are due to multiple ovulation by the ewe, and can be affected by her plane of nutrition at tupping. It has NOTHING to do with the ram, unless you believe he normally only produces one sperm.
4. Limping. Environmental due to bacteria. They aren't born with scald or foot rot.
5. Good growth with no concentrates. If you are selling a ram, you show it at its best. To get the optimum price for a ram lamb it needs to be big. That generally means born early and fed concentrates to achieve maximum size at point of sale. If you don't feed your ram lamb to achieve optimum growth, you will lose your sale to the breeder who does.
6. Fast growing and therefore big for its age. Yes - this I agree with. But the seller will ensure optimum growth, again by feeding concentrates.
7. High Worm resistance. I do not wish to insult you by saying that this is rubbish. (So I will think it but not say it :sunshine: .) There is no tool available to the smallholder to test worm resistance. You can test for worms, but if you don't find many this doesn't prove the sheep have a genetic resistance.
1) a difficult birth could be as a result of overfeeding, but has a genetic component, so why take the risk breeding from that ram?
3) Correct, twins/trips etc are a result of the number of eggs released by the ewe and it is hereditary, but I'm pretty sure its heritability isnt only down the maternal line, ergo, if you want to retain ewe lambs from your ewes and the ram you have just bought, then you will want a ram that also carries those genetics, that he will pass on to his daughters.
4) Some animals have a greater natural resistance to those bacteria than others. Ask any farmer who has culled for foot problems over a number of years. If I have a limper, and she doesn't get better in a couple of days, I trim, treat and cull. I buy animals off those who do the same. I am a grazier and run ewes over lots of different kinds of ground, including some overgrown stuff etc. I have seen two cases of full blown scald in my career.
5) You could always sell it privately. Lots of people are now wanting grass fed rams for the reason that they want to get their offspring to market weight off grass alone. As soon as you feed concentrates you mask those genes. Some of the more easy to find breeders who do this are Easyrams: http://www.easyrams.co.uk/ (http://www.easyrams.co.uk/) and Peter Baber http://www.baber.co.uk/ (http://www.baber.co.uk/) . The texel breed society also appears to be moving in this direction from a piece I read in the last "Sheep Farmer" (Edited to add: and of course, I forgot Meatlincs and Primeras)
7) FECs do this - you test each animal - you will then see who is carrying the biggest worm burden. Its easy enough to buy a microscope and a macmaster slide. In New Zealand, breeders associations actually give awards to flocks with the best natural antihalmic properties.
Apparently barbados black belly sheep have a very high natural worm resistance, and have been used in (very tiny part, cos they look like goats - ha) in breeding Exlanas.
Your other points, I'll just have to say I disagree with.
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Steve, I agree.
If I were buying a Suffolk tup now for commercial production (though it's really too late to be sure he's going to be in peak condition) I'd be basing my choice around EBVs and buying off-farm rather from an auction. Genetics is much more important than size and conformation.
That means I'd need to understand the genetic characteristics of my ewes on my land with my production system so I can match the maternal and terminal sire indices.
That's the biggest difference between small flocks and commercial production though we can all cull out the weak or problematic performers.
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Steve, I agree.
If I were buying a Suffolk tup now for commercial production (though it's really too late to be sure he's going to be in peak condition) I'd be basing my choice around EBVs and buying off-farm rather from an auction. Genetics is much more important than size and conformation.
That means I'd need to understand the genetic characteristics of my ewes on my land with my production system so I can match the maternal and terminal sire indices.
That's the biggest difference between small flocks and commercial production though we can all cull out the weak or problematic performers.
Exactly - when I had a small flock, I had a different version of 'cull' anything that wasn't too problematic (eg whose feet I had to trim, not those who I had to assist at lambing, for me that is a red card every time), my culling was of their genetics, ie I'd use those lambs for meat, but not replacements - with small flocks its easy to keep very accurate records.
And funnily enough - I bought a pair of SufTex's this year for that very purpose (I do love a composite haha).
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That's fair enough Steve, there are as many ways of producing sheep as there are people producing them.
But I believe you are talking about the theory, as you admit that you've never produced or sold a ram for breeding, and I am talking about the practice, backed by 30 years experience.
Also, I don't understand why you keep suggesting selling privately. That is exactly where most small producers sell, as we aren't famous enough to compete at the big breed sales.
As such, the buyers come and can see our stock, including their parents and siblings, and how we keep them. And that's exactly what I do when I get a replacement ram. Nobody at this level asks for written confirmation about how soon the ram stood at birth, whether it is a triplet or if its mother only lambs every second year, or how many worms were found at the last worm count. Do you honestly think someone will chose to breed from a small lamb, that was a twin, feeding within 20 seconds of birth, never had any concentrates, with a low faecal egg count, over a large single lamb that you had no further information on? If you, or the people giving you all this information, would chose the former, then it's no wonder that all you are seeing is "shite"
I can prevent difficult births by the feeding programme of the ewe.
I can treat a lamb that limps. I've never had one that was untreatable.
I can flush the ewes so I get 200% + lambing.
I don't need to do FEC. Wormy lambs stand out a mile.
But to get a good shaped fast growing lamb, that will fetch the best price, whether for breeding or meat, then I will buy a good shaped, well grown ram. Size and shape are to me the only important genetic characteristics that I will not compromise on.
And JFDI, I'm not discounting EBVs - this is a useful tool for commercial flocks. But this post was originally about starting a small flock and you can't justify a high EBV ram for half a dozen ewes.
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I can prevent difficult births by the feeding programme of the ewe.
I can treat a lamb that limps. I've never had one that was untreatable.
I can flush the ewes so I get 200% + lambing.
I don't need to do FEC. Wormy lambs stand out a mile.
But to get a good shaped fast growing lamb, that will fetch the best price, whether for breeding or meat, then I will buy a good shaped, well grown ram. Size and shape are to me the only important genetic characteristics that I will not compromise on.
Prevent difficult births? So, you are saying that if you feed the ewes right, you'll never have to assist a lamb?
I only had to assist 2 last year out of 105, but thats still 2 too many for me. One was a large single and took 18 odd hours to suck, with me hand milking the ewe (who I had to catch and pen), the other was a set of twins, both coming at the same time, one with one of its front legs back and considerably smaller than the other. Both ewes will go.
I can treat a sheep that limps, but I don't want her genetics, thankyou. I treat her and then she goes, because 99% of my flock don't limp, and their daughters will be coming on and, Id much sooner keep one of those, given that it it more likely that they will never go off their feet either.
I tend not to flush ewes, but I see no problem with doing so. I find that I get nigh on that using lleyns and lleyn crosses on just decent grass, but different breeds are different.
Wormy lambs can stand out a mile, but you'd be surprised. This summer I had FECs done on a batch that looked otherwise ok (no scour, no pinch, spriteley little things), I just reckoned they weren't coming on as fast (which some people said was because it had been cold), all needed worming and had elevated levels of cocci.
And you are right, I don't produce rams for two reasons - firstly, I still only have a small flock of wiltshires and so am not really expecting to see one thats well above average, but if I do, I'll have no qualms about selling it. Secondly, I am breeding a maternal line who are particular to what I want, and so I really hadn't considered that there would be a market for them, but if anybody wants a polled, woolshedding ram - I have some absolute crackers (some of which I'm keeping for myself :P )
But what I do do is buy rams. I find it the easiest way to progress my flock quickly, and I know what I want to see, as a customer.
Edited to add: I do know people who would buy a twin who was up and sucking quickly etc as opposed to a massive single, admittedly it wouldn't be a small twin (as twins go). Thats what the indices on the EBV sheet relate to - a single would have a small litter size factor. Of course, you leave it up to the reputation of the ram breeder not to fiddle the info. Plenty of terminal sire producers (and maternal breed producers, come to that) especially are using EBVs, its one way to get around being a small flock owner, because you can compare to all the other terminal sire producers (across the breeds) who produce rams.
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Probably time to draw a line under this fireside chat and chill out, don't you think?
I've enjoyed it a lot and it's been very thought provoking.
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Steve, I would just like to say that to only have 2 assisted births from 105 ewes is really good. I must admit I'm happy with 4/ 100 ewes.
Also, as you say, Lleyns are a prolific breed , so don't usually need flushing. But with something like Ryelands, or commercial cross breeds, it is usually worth doing for the extra lambs you get.
But your lambs that you tested for worms this year, must have appeared inferior in some way, and obviously you noticed that they weren't as good as they could have been.
However, as I'm sure you'll agree, most of our differences are a matter of opinion, and because you have a maternal breed of sheep, and I buy, and have produced a terminal breed. So obviously there is some difference in the market we are aiming at. But there is nothing wrong with good robust discussion, and I find it's useful to find out how other people do things and then make your own decision. :sunshine: :sunshine:
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I think JFDI is right, this thread has run its course and is being locked.
Thanks, :sheep: :thumbsup:
Dan