[minibn]

Hi

I am looking to purchase an Ifor Williams 505, as my little 3.5 horsebox has pretty much on its last legs. I have been looking at towing vehicles and really like the freelander. I am looking at an 07 plate onwards. I am trying to work out if i can legally tow my 6.1hh warmblood in it. He weighs around 550-600kgs. I wouldn't be using it for 2 16.2 horses. I know that the max towing capacity of the freelander is 2000kgs. Although it would appear that the 505 max gross weight is more than this. Does the max gross weight only come into play when u actually are carrying that much? or are you meant to have a vehicle that can tow at least the max gross weight. I'm a bit confused.

Any advice welcomed

Cheers

Emily

[robert waddell]

IF THE FREELANDER HAS A TOWING CAPACITY OF 2000 kilos that is the max you can tow with it    you have to weigh the horses and the trailor and not forgetting the tack in the back of the motor as well   sorry

[Mallows Flock]

My Freelander TD4 53 plate has towed 5 large white x Duroc pigs to slaughter before no problem!
The best truck I had for towing heavy weights was a Vauxhall Frontera.... petrol! it was fab! literally drove like it was towing nothing! Amazing truck!

[robert waddell]

they can all tow in excess of there limit   but plod take a dim view if you are caught  and if you are involved in a an accident (not your fault)  you will be held responsible and the insurance is invalid
but carry on it is not my licence or me that will be paying for the indiscretion

[lachlanandmarcus]

Recommend strongly consulting Rog on the sticky Towing section of the HorseandHound forum. He is the absolute guru on all things to do with towing legals, understanding all the different terms and licence classes etc.
The info you will need  to allow him to give you a definitive answer is (altho there are a lot of other Freelander towing queries already answered on the thread)
 Licence eg B+E if pre 1997 full licence, B if post 1997 and no additional towing test taken
2 Empty weight of towing vehicle in kg
3 GVW of towing vehicle in kg
4 Towing capacity of towing vehicle
5 Plated MAM of trailer  in kg
6 Unladen/empty weight of trailer
He's incredibly helpful. NB there are an awful lot of Freelander variants so worth getting his individual response. He also explains why something is ok and what can be done about it.
Heres the link
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=490195&highlight=towing

[mcginty]

I found that to tow a horse box comfortably esp. on long journey's you need over 2.5 diesel.

[Fowgill Farm]

Not heard good things about any freelanders, theres lots of dodgy ones about so make sure it has a full service history, everyone i know who has had one has got rid as fast as they could this included pulling caravans and pig trailers to shows. Also as Robert says if you only pull on the limit of their capability all the time wear and tear will be greater and you run the risk of plod taking an interest.
Mandy

[robert waddell]

transit vans are good for towing esp white ones       i have had two freelanders and thought they were alright but they were relatively new    the worst motor for towing was a TD5 disco towing an ifor DP120g  12-14 mpg and screaming its tits of coming up the m6 with 3 pigs on in second gear (auto)and only doing 50 mph     the best one is my current motor that i have had for nearly 6 years tdv8 rangie sport   goes like s**t of a shovel even with 3.5 tons on its but   and could outdrag these dicks that try to get in front at the traffic lights and that was loaded or with a caravan on  A BIG CARAVAN

[Small Farmer]

The simple answer is yes you can!


The 505 weighs 1000kg, the horse adds 600kg, tack and water another 100kg at most.  So you're perfectly fine to tow with a 2000kg limited Freelander.   I am assuming you're not charging other people or moving livestock.  Business use and farm animals have complex rules, tests to be passed, driver hours, space per animal, distances travelled.


The plate on the 505 shows its capacity.  From memory the max loaded weight of a 505 is about 2500, so you could carry 1500kg of load over and above the trailer weight - more horse than you can physically get into it.  However, you'd then need a tow car with more grunt.


The real fun comes with horse lorries which around here attract officials like flies to sh*t

[ppd]

I looked in to this recently and thought that your towing car should be able to tow the max  weight of your trailer regardless if you are way under weight. Look into it closley as insurance companies will look for any 'out' if you have an accident.
 

[Victorian Farmer]

i got caught 1 mile from thainstone  i had 4 beasts and was just over £60 fine van beyond well over £150 spot fine first thing in the morning and remember you have to take out the stock and go back to fetch it .

[lachlanandmarcus]

I looked in to this recently and thought that your towing car should be able to tow the max  weight of your trailer regardless if you are way under weight. Look into it closley as insurance companies will look for any 'out' if you have an accident.

Although lazy police try to get people on this, as it is too much effort to take them to a weigh bridge, it is the actual weight that is the legal issue, not the theoretical capacity.
I would recommend anyone who has issues with officious officials or police in this respect to refer them to the VOSA horsebox guide which is very explicit on this
http://www.dft.gov.uk/vosa/repository/Horsebox%20Guide%20low%20res.pdf
"It is perfectly acceptable for a goods vehicle to be used with a maximum plated train weight of less than the combined plated gross weights of the vehicle and trailer, as long as the trailer isn’t actually loaded to the extent that its actual weight would exceed the maximum threshold of the towing vehicle’s maximum plated train weight.
For example, a towing vehicle with a plated gross weight of 3 tonnes and a plated train weight of 5 tonnes, could feasibly tow a trailer with a maximum gross weight of 3.5 tonnes. However, if both the vehicle and trailer in the combination were loaded to their respective maximum gross weights, then the combination’s maximum train weight would be exceeded by 1.5 tonnes. It’s the actual weight of the vehicle and load which is important in determining a vehicle’s compliance with legal weight thresholds, not the potential carrying capacity."
So there is no need to 'downplate' the trailer capacity to match the vehicle (even tho some people pay good money to trailer manufacturers), tho it is essential to make sure that the towing capacity of the vehicle allows for the actual weight you are towing at all times.
The only time when downplating might be needed is (i) if you never carry anything heavy and never will and like a quiet life or (ii) if you have licence restrictions which mean you dont have automatic towing rights (1997 onwards mainly can normally only tow a loaded if they take a towing test as they didnt get it when they passed the main driving test from that date. NB there are a couple of trailer/vehicle combos which they can do, but the one quoted isnt one of them afaik.

[Small Farmer]

Thank you LM.   This is a simple situation and the complexities of towing as part of a business don't need to be raised.


There's a nice short leaflet which sets out the rules
http://www.dft.gov.uk/vosa/repository/Quick%20guide%20to%20towing%20small%20trailers.pdf


To flesh this out I just checked my car's VIN plate which reads
2510 - the maximum weight of the loaded car - it weighs 1760kg empty
5510 - the maximum of car plus trailer - so a 3000kg trailer can be towed with the car at maximum load
1200 - maximum weight on the front axle of the car
1460 - ditto for the back axle


My Ifor Williams 510 has a plate reading
2584 - maximum weight of the trailer
1292 - max weight front axle
1292 - ditto rear axle


I know the 510 weighs 1100kg so I can in theory load two 700kg warmbloods and their hay - as long as their weight is evenly split front-rear, which it won't be.  The trailer should be nose heavy by 50-100kg, which weight is taken by the car.


Fully laden this falls within the 3000kg towing capacity of the car even if I've loaded 750kg of fuel, people and iron bars into the car.  Not sure I'd want to do a hill start though.


The above numbers will all be smaller for a Freelander and 505 but the principles are the same.  Note that the advice not to exceed 80-85% of towing vehicle's weight is a recommendation only.  It is highly relevant to single axle trailers rather than the close coupled Ifor Williams twin axles which resist yaw and the tendency to snake which plagues caravans.

[lachlanandmarcus]

It did need to be raised, because a subsequent post to the OPs raised a commonly voiced doubt : also the link/quote I posted is a complete document covering both private and commercial..
The significance of it (the quotation I made from it) is that it is the only official place in writingfrom the government agency responsible for the area that clarifies (for all users actually) that it does not matter whether your trailer can in theory (on its plate) carry more than your vehicle can tow , so long as you dont actually tow more than you (licence)and the vehicle (the rules covered in your leaflet link) are permitted.
This question about plating was the worry/quandary/insurance issue raised in PPDs  post and which I was providing the definitive clarification for. Which is why I quoted it at the top of my post.....
 

[Small Farmer]

Sorry LM I worded my note badly. Your contribution was necessary