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Author Topic: Tupping ewe lambs  (Read 11002 times)

Foobar

  • Joined Mar 2012
  • South Wales
Tupping ewe lambs
« on: July 13, 2012, 12:42:25 pm »
Does anyone tup their ewe lambs?  And if so, do you think it's a good thing to do or not?


I'm particularly interested in views from folks who have smaller breeds of sheep, say 45-50kg or less.

CaroleBulmer

  • Joined Jul 2012
  • Barrington, Somerset
Re: Tupping ewe lambs
« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2012, 01:37:19 pm »
Depends on the breed of sheep - I have tupped ewe lambs before, ensuring that they lamb in March, April and that a smaller breed of ram is used ie not Texel, Suffolk etc and do not over feed then there shouldn't be any problems.  Dont leave the ram in too long either, a maximum of four weeks and if they dont go then there is always next year, they wont all take as some mature quicker than others.

omnipeasant

  • Joined May 2012
  • Llangurig , Mid Wales
Re: Tupping ewe lambs
« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2012, 04:22:59 pm »
We only did it once and will not be repeating. We have not experienced lambing problems with shearlings but the well grown lambs found all sorts of ways to get it wrong. 

Fleecewife

  • Joined May 2010
  • South Lanarkshire
    • ScotHebs
Re: Tupping ewe lambs
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2012, 08:10:17 pm »
We have not deliberately bred ewe lambs of any of the breeds we have kept - Jacobs, Hebrideans, Soay, Shetlands, Gotland, cross-breds.  A couple of very determined Hebs did once fight their way to the tup and in the couple of mins they were in with him got into lamb.  There were no lambing or mothering difficulties, but that is hardly a representative sample.
In general, the thinking is that breeding ewe lambs can lead to lambing difficulties and a check in the growth of the ewe herself.  The reports of problems which have filtered back to me have been polarised ie some people would never repeat the experiment and others have noticed no difference, with every opinion in between  ::) .  I think you do have to pay careful attention to feeding - ewe lambs tend to get more singles than multiple births, so overfeeding would lead to larger lambs and the potential for birthing problems in first time lambers, who would also be slightly smaller than older mothers.
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woollyval

  • Joined Feb 2008
  • Near Bodmin, Cornwall
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Re: Tupping ewe lambs
« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2012, 08:49:08 pm »
My thoughts are that with 'improved' breeds such as most of the commercial types and meat breeds there is no real gain...
However in the wild type of unimproved primitive breeds there would not be humans to seperate youngsters and so those old enough would be served and go on to lamb....just as in wild deer!

I therefore tend to breed from mine in their first year, some get in lamb, some dont and most are really good mums!
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SallyintNorth

  • Joined Feb 2011
  • Cornwall
  • Rarely short of an opinion but I mean well
    • Trelay Cohousing Community
Re: Tupping ewe lambs
« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2012, 12:22:42 am »
If tupping ewe lambs, keep it natural.  No flushing no teasing no hormones.  Yes choose a tup / breed suited to smaller ewes and of an easy-lambing type.  Tup much later than you would your other females - we lamb the bulk of the flock in March, with a few earlies mid-Feb; the hoggs lamb in May.

As others have said, accept that not all the girls will take.  Those which don't will grow well for next year.

I have found that North Country Mules (Swale x BFL) are better first-time mothers if not tupped until their second autumn, but if you can manage the penning and supporting they will mother their lambs ok from a first-year mating and, so long as they were well fed as lambs it does not adversely affect their eventual size.  They may well be smaller as gimmers than their barren sisters, but by the second shear you won't be able to tell which have lambed once and which twice.

Folks around here do not tup lambs of hill breeds - Swaledale, Blackface - saying that it ruins the ewe.
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SteveHants

  • Joined Aug 2011
Re: Tupping ewe lambs
« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2012, 04:44:39 pm »
Tupping ewe lambs, my thoughts:


I wouldn't put my Wilts ewe lambs to the tup, because they are slow-growing, and I imagine I might extend this principle to primitive breeds. However, fast growing commercial breeds I would, and aim to, this autumn.


My policy will be - only those ewe lambs who have attained 40KG will go to the tup, they will not be allowed to raise trips, I am as yet undecided about twins. I have heard it is a bad idea, and is likely to knock multiple births later in the ewes life. I believe that because of her age, supplementary feeding will not benefit the in utero lamb, but will cause the ewe to gain weight, possibly leading to complications, so the message is don't give them extra rations (compared to those you would normally give your ewes)


However, it is understood, I think that a ewe lamb who takes the ram in her first year will be more productive throughout her life (Ovine early oestrus somethingorother) and of course, it keeps the ewes small when fully mature which can only be a good thing - nobody wants massive ewes to feed.




Will.i.lamb

  • Joined Apr 2012
Re: Tupping ewe lambs
« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2012, 09:25:39 pm »
Hi

I bought 5 welsh mountain lambs with the intention of putting to the tup this year. To my surprise three of them had lambs before they were a year old! All three lambed with no assistance and have been great mums.

Will




kanisha

  • Joined Dec 2007
    • Spered Breizh Ouessants
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Re: Tupping ewe lambs
« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2012, 10:12:53 pm »
Having done both I would out of choice not put ewe lambs to the ram unless I felt there was a very good reason to want to do so. Ie what advantage is there in risking a higher percentage of lambing difficulties and mismothering over waiting a year.

I have had both experiences of excellent and attentive mums and also those who would walk away from what appears to them an alien lamb. I find the experience of having the ewe lambs in with the ewes during the first year during lambing  helps them learn about the lambing process and also to learn from the older ewes.
My ewes are all under 20 kgs
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Castle Farm

  • Joined Nov 2008
  • Hereford/Powys Border. near Hay-on-Wye
    • castlefarmeggs
Re: Tupping ewe lambs
« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2012, 07:34:27 am »
Why would you want to breed from any animal that hadn't matured enough to take the birth.

You wouldn't want a 12 year old girl to get pregnant would you.

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Foobar

  • Joined Mar 2012
  • South Wales
Re: Tupping ewe lambs
« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2012, 09:26:24 am »
In mammals it is the start of the first estrous cycle that defines when they are ready to mate.  If the mating doesn't hold then that is the body's way of saying that it isn't ready.  In the wild any animal that started to cycle would be mated with.  If said animal then proceeded to have difficulties at birth then she would not survive, and thus only the strongest would continue to breed.

It is only man that interferes with nature so much and cocks it all up.  We confine these animals and prevent their natural behavior.

In my view any ewe (of any age) that has difficulty at lambing should not be kept (unless you know that the cause was your own doing, i.e. overfeeding).  And we should not be developing these big breeds with big heads and shoulders that cause so much trouble at lambing time.

In farming in general there seems to be a gradual increase in this sort of methodology - easy care animals, putting all ewe lambs to the ram, and only keeping those that get in lamb.  Hence why I asked the question here to see what other people's experiences have been to date.

As for pregnant 12 year old girls, well that's a human sociological issue that isn't really relevant to sheep  :) .
« Last Edit: July 15, 2012, 09:28:35 am by foobar »

kanisha

  • Joined Dec 2007
    • Spered Breizh Ouessants
    • Facebook
Re: Tupping ewe lambs
« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2012, 09:33:20 am »
Foobar wrote "In farming in general there seems to be a gradual increase in this sort of methodology - easy care animals, putting all ewe lambs to the ram, and only keeping those that get in lamb.  Hence why I asked the question here to see what other people's experiences have been to date."

I agree re considering lambing difficulties as a reason not to keep any sheep however there are plenty of other points to consider before you could argue the point that a ewe lamb that didn't get pregnant should not be kept. what trait are you selecting for in this instance?

would the confinement ( fields)  with optimum nutrition have any effect on whether the ewe lambs got pregnant and in fact if you wanted to study such a model wouldn't an island population such as the soay on hirta be a better model where there is no mangement  of sheep or conditions. ?

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Foobar

  • Joined Mar 2012
  • South Wales
Re: Tupping ewe lambs
« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2012, 09:53:11 am »
I personally would be selecting for productivity, ease of management, and maximum animal welfare.  But I'm on a lowland holding, so my selection criteria obviously may not be applicable to a mountain or upland situation.
 
Yes I think the nutrition levels would have a baring on whether a ewe lamb got pregnant.  I would assume, better nutrition would imply faster maturing.

I did google but couldn't find any data on whether those Soay sheep lamb as yearlings or not.  I would assume it depends on the weather and how well the pasture does that year.

kanisha

  • Joined Dec 2007
    • Spered Breizh Ouessants
    • Facebook
Re: Tupping ewe lambs
« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2012, 12:00:21 pm »
Foobar wrote
"I personally would be selecting for productivity, "

It is hard to argue a "natural" model when your aims is so goal directed and  not necessarily in line with natures.

http://www.lancs.ac.uk/staff/wilsonk4/publications-files/EVOLUTION2001soayColtman.pdf

very often the trade off is not as obvious as it would appear or we would like.

hmm this is actually the study I was thinking of

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21030656
« Last Edit: July 15, 2012, 12:38:14 pm by kanisha »
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Foobar

  • Joined Mar 2012
  • South Wales
Re: Tupping ewe lambs
« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2012, 12:53:16 pm »
Sorry if I wasn't very clear - I wasn't arguing anything :), I was merely discussing what some farmers currently do.
I don't breed from my own ewe-lambs (but I have done).

 

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