The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: Foobar on July 13, 2012, 12:42:25 pm
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Does anyone tup their ewe lambs? And if so, do you think it's a good thing to do or not?
I'm particularly interested in views from folks who have smaller breeds of sheep, say 45-50kg or less.
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Depends on the breed of sheep - I have tupped ewe lambs before, ensuring that they lamb in March, April and that a smaller breed of ram is used ie not Texel, Suffolk etc and do not over feed then there shouldn't be any problems. Dont leave the ram in too long either, a maximum of four weeks and if they dont go then there is always next year, they wont all take as some mature quicker than others.
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We only did it once and will not be repeating. We have not experienced lambing problems with shearlings but the well grown lambs found all sorts of ways to get it wrong.
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We have not deliberately bred ewe lambs of any of the breeds we have kept - Jacobs, Hebrideans, Soay, Shetlands, Gotland, cross-breds. A couple of very determined Hebs did once fight their way to the tup and in the couple of mins they were in with him got into lamb. There were no lambing or mothering difficulties, but that is hardly a representative sample.
In general, the thinking is that breeding ewe lambs can lead to lambing difficulties and a check in the growth of the ewe herself. The reports of problems which have filtered back to me have been polarised ie some people would never repeat the experiment and others have noticed no difference, with every opinion in between ::) . I think you do have to pay careful attention to feeding - ewe lambs tend to get more singles than multiple births, so overfeeding would lead to larger lambs and the potential for birthing problems in first time lambers, who would also be slightly smaller than older mothers.
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My thoughts are that with 'improved' breeds such as most of the commercial types and meat breeds there is no real gain...
However in the wild type of unimproved primitive breeds there would not be humans to seperate youngsters and so those old enough would be served and go on to lamb....just as in wild deer!
I therefore tend to breed from mine in their first year, some get in lamb, some dont and most are really good mums!
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If tupping ewe lambs, keep it natural. No flushing no teasing no hormones. Yes choose a tup / breed suited to smaller ewes and of an easy-lambing type. Tup much later than you would your other females - we lamb the bulk of the flock in March, with a few earlies mid-Feb; the hoggs lamb in May.
As others have said, accept that not all the girls will take. Those which don't will grow well for next year.
I have found that North Country Mules (Swale x BFL) are better first-time mothers if not tupped until their second autumn, but if you can manage the penning and supporting they will mother their lambs ok from a first-year mating and, so long as they were well fed as lambs it does not adversely affect their eventual size. They may well be smaller as gimmers than their barren sisters, but by the second shear you won't be able to tell which have lambed once and which twice.
Folks around here do not tup lambs of hill breeds - Swaledale, Blackface - saying that it ruins the ewe.
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Tupping ewe lambs, my thoughts:
I wouldn't put my Wilts ewe lambs to the tup, because they are slow-growing, and I imagine I might extend this principle to primitive breeds. However, fast growing commercial breeds I would, and aim to, this autumn.
My policy will be - only those ewe lambs who have attained 40KG will go to the tup, they will not be allowed to raise trips, I am as yet undecided about twins. I have heard it is a bad idea, and is likely to knock multiple births later in the ewes life. I believe that because of her age, supplementary feeding will not benefit the in utero lamb, but will cause the ewe to gain weight, possibly leading to complications, so the message is don't give them extra rations (compared to those you would normally give your ewes)
However, it is understood, I think that a ewe lamb who takes the ram in her first year will be more productive throughout her life (Ovine early oestrus somethingorother) and of course, it keeps the ewes small when fully mature which can only be a good thing - nobody wants massive ewes to feed.
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Hi
I bought 5 welsh mountain lambs with the intention of putting to the tup this year. To my surprise three of them had lambs before they were a year old! All three lambed with no assistance and have been great mums.
Will
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Having done both I would out of choice not put ewe lambs to the ram unless I felt there was a very good reason to want to do so. Ie what advantage is there in risking a higher percentage of lambing difficulties and mismothering over waiting a year.
I have had both experiences of excellent and attentive mums and also those who would walk away from what appears to them an alien lamb. I find the experience of having the ewe lambs in with the ewes during the first year during lambing helps them learn about the lambing process and also to learn from the older ewes.
My ewes are all under 20 kgs
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Why would you want to breed from any animal that hadn't matured enough to take the birth.
You wouldn't want a 12 year old girl to get pregnant would you.
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In mammals it is the start of the first estrous cycle that defines when they are ready to mate. If the mating doesn't hold then that is the body's way of saying that it isn't ready. In the wild any animal that started to cycle would be mated with. If said animal then proceeded to have difficulties at birth then she would not survive, and thus only the strongest would continue to breed.
It is only man that interferes with nature so much and cocks it all up. We confine these animals and prevent their natural behavior.
In my view any ewe (of any age) that has difficulty at lambing should not be kept (unless you know that the cause was your own doing, i.e. overfeeding). And we should not be developing these big breeds with big heads and shoulders that cause so much trouble at lambing time.
In farming in general there seems to be a gradual increase in this sort of methodology - easy care animals, putting all ewe lambs to the ram, and only keeping those that get in lamb. Hence why I asked the question here to see what other people's experiences have been to date.
As for pregnant 12 year old girls, well that's a human sociological issue that isn't really relevant to sheep :) .
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Foobar wrote "In farming in general there seems to be a gradual increase in this sort of methodology - easy care animals, putting all ewe lambs to the ram, and only keeping those that get in lamb. Hence why I asked the question here to see what other people's experiences have been to date."
I agree re considering lambing difficulties as a reason not to keep any sheep however there are plenty of other points to consider before you could argue the point that a ewe lamb that didn't get pregnant should not be kept. what trait are you selecting for in this instance?
would the confinement ( fields) with optimum nutrition have any effect on whether the ewe lambs got pregnant and in fact if you wanted to study such a model wouldn't an island population such as the soay on hirta be a better model where there is no mangement of sheep or conditions. ?
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I personally would be selecting for productivity, ease of management, and maximum animal welfare. But I'm on a lowland holding, so my selection criteria obviously may not be applicable to a mountain or upland situation.
Yes I think the nutrition levels would have a baring on whether a ewe lamb got pregnant. I would assume, better nutrition would imply faster maturing.
I did google but couldn't find any data on whether those Soay sheep lamb as yearlings or not. I would assume it depends on the weather and how well the pasture does that year.
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Foobar wrote
"I personally would be selecting for productivity, "
It is hard to argue a "natural" model when your aims is so goal directed and not necessarily in line with natures.
http://www.lancs.ac.uk/staff/wilsonk4/publications-files/EVOLUTION2001soayColtman.pdf (http://www.lancs.ac.uk/staff/wilsonk4/publications-files/EVOLUTION2001soayColtman.pdf)
very often the trade off is not as obvious as it would appear or we would like.
hmm this is actually the study I was thinking of
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21030656 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21030656)
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Sorry if I wasn't very clear - I wasn't arguing anything :), I was merely discussing what some farmers currently do.
I don't breed from my own ewe-lambs (but I have done).
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my point being....... that the "natural" state to breed from ewe lambs is anything but, in the model as it exists in lowland pasture farming.
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Getting a bit technical for me!!! I just keep my ouessants as low key as possible in that they are not on lush new leys and are kept extensively. I only feed hard feed, and of that very little, for 6 weeks prior to lambing and the rams get nothing at all. They all get hay/haylage offered from November/December - April. I find that some lambs take and some don't, none have lambing problems, in fact since I started keeping this breed in 2006 I have had no lambing problems at all and have only ever helped one ewe who needed an extra tug (she is old!) I have kept sheep for many many years and one thing I have seen is hogs that get too fat and then have problems getting in lamb and lambing problems thereafter! My personal opinion is that ewes who continually have problems should not be kept for breeding and the fashion for sheep such as texel and beltex who nowdays often have horrendous lambing problems due to desirable ( ??? ) traits is rather unpleasant!
Give me an easy lambing, easy to keep primitive any day......saying that I have just bought a couple of Ryelands....never had these before!!! :innocent:
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I bred my ewe lambs and I would do so again. Keeping primitives on lush Somerset grass it is tricky stopping them running to fat so I put mine to the tup. They are all as big as the ewes they came from and their lambs are cracking. Yes I did have a tricky labour and a resulting weakly lamb and not much milk with one, but i think the fact she came through and a week after was feeding her lamb 100% was a credit to her not a fault.
She is the only ewe of my own that I have ever had to help, and it was my fault for feeding them.
I go with the view 'if they are big enough, they are old enough' and so far it has worked out for me :thumbsup:
I only ever use a primitive tup though, no way would I put a ewe lamb to a bigger one.
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I don't think there is anything wrong with putting a ewe lamb to the tup as long as she has attained a suitable size (relative to breed, obviously :P ). If she has started menstruating, she is mature enough to take the ram.
Re: '12 year old girl' comment - the two are not the same. I think the word I am looking for is 'anthropomorphism' which is something to be avoided as it clouds judgement, which should be based on the species of animal concerned and not Homo sapiens.
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Steve wrote
"Re: '12 year old girl' comment - the two are not the same. I think the word I am looking for is 'anthropomorphism' which is something to be avoided as it clouds judgement, which should be based on the species of animal concerned and not Homo sapiens."
wow now that is a far more controversial statement to me.
recognising not just the physical but emotional demands and attainment of maturity could apply equally across the species and last time I checked homo sapiens was included as a species and not some divine creation.
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What I meant was: one needs to look at the biological needs of whatever species of animal it is that you are managing and not try and draw parallels with human society or indeed our biological needs.
And whether or not there are parallels (sheep and humans are both mamalian, so there are likely to be some), I find it is best to disregard them and think solely in terms of the animal you are managing.
This is possibly easier for me as I spent many years farming fish where similarities with humans are few, to say the least. :P
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When we started with sheep, Zwartbles, our vet recommended we bred the ewe lambs, as long as they have grown on well they are mature enough to do so, and if they are not ready they tend not to take.
If you do breed from your ewe lambs ideally they should be kept as a seperate group to older ewes in the flock, they cannot keep at the trough with older ewes and will not be getting the quantity of feed you think they are getting if they are in with older ewes and you risk problems such as twin lamb etc if you do not keep the ewe lambs seperate/ensure they have adequate food intake in the run up to lambing. You also need to ensure that you don't overfeed them and they cannot have the same intake as an older ewe, this is something to do with the fact that they themselves are still growing as well as needing to divert nutrients to the growing embryos and they can get metabolic problems.
We have had very few lambing problems with ewe lambs, in general they lamb extremely easily and more quickly than older ewes. Ours have been good mums although can be too overprotective and keep the lambs under their nose rather than let them drink until they learn about lambs needing the milk bar.
We lamb ours after the main group, aiming for early April so that the ewes have good grass available whilst they are lactating. You do need to bear in mind that a ewe hogg/shearling will only produce 60% volume of milk as an older ewe would too, so certainly if she has twins they may need more supplementary feeding than lambs born to older ewes.
I think if you are prepared to take the additional care with them and their lambs, then as long as they are well enough grown and an appropriate breed there is not any reason not to breed from them. Our vet said that they would then be in better breeding condition for future years. However if we wanted to grow a lamb on for showing as a shearling we certainly wouldn't breed from her in her lamb year.