[thenovice]

I was thinking about all the advice ive been given about buying only pedigree pigs that are registered with a breed society or the bpa. I wondered if anyone on the forum disagreed with it, and thought it was just a way of making money out of ordinary people, or does a breed really need to have registered stock to continue its existance? What happened before registering? Who decided what was pure and what wasnt? Surely there must be some very old lines that were never signed up? I have Patterdales, Not registered with the kennel club, but a breed in their own right, and a fantastic, loyal working terrier! 

[Beewyched]

IMHO I think it's essential to have registered stock, especially where KKs are concerned re the Bl**dy "micro-pig" saga 
It should mean that anyone purchasing weaners knows exactly what they're getting ( as different breeds produce different types of meat) & if they wish to breed then they will know that the offspring will be true to type. 
Also, with some of the rare breeds, that there is as little in-breeding as possible.
I'm not saying that there is not a place for x-breed pigs - some of them make fantastic meat - just that if someone is selling "pure-breed" weaners, then there should be no reason for them not to have a pedigree behind them.
I think the main issue is the exhorbitant fees that some Associations charge for membership etc 
 

[SallyintNorth]

I'm a farmer and we work with pure and cross breed animals.  Personally I have no issue with unregistered purebred stock nor with crossbred stock, indeed a lot of farming is based on hybrid vigour (the Mule sheep, the Blue Grey cow, for instance.)

Registration becomes an issue when guarantees of purity and parentage are required. In farming we now have to use registered pedigree bulls to claim our 'ppk uplift' (pence per kilo : we get +10p/kilo for Hereford and Aberdeen Angus, +20p for Beef / Whitebred Shorthorn) and the same is a-coming for sheep (Dunbia have extra bonuses for offspring of registered Beltex tups.)

Farmers wanting payments for using native breed for conservation grazing must also use pedigree animals - and whilst I understand the rationale (proving the stock is indeed native and helping the native breeds as opposed to claiming a subsidy while still breeding commercial stock), it rankles that this very stricture is harming the Whitebred Shorthorn as he is father to the Blue Grey, and she is a hybrid so disallowed under these schemes.   

Insofar as being told that I am harming the breed if I breed from unregistered stock, I turn a deaf ear.  If I passed unregistered stock off as pedigree, if I tried to undercut pedigree breeders with purebred offspring, then I could see the argument.  As far as I am concerned, if I am seen to breed healthy, commercially viable pigs with an OSB mum, that helps OSBs.  It makes no odds if she is registered and it is emphatically not harming the breed that I am crossing her to make a butcher-friendly porker.  IMO.

[robert waddell]

a very interesting topic or debate it would be a very rare item  to have a breeder that would have a rare line that nobody knew existed there records would have to be impeccable to check on service dates    farrowing dates  numbers born numbers reared  etc  and would be subject to intense scrutiny and DNA testing to even be allowed the idea of being accepted
 
the registration with either the lop kunie or the bpa is only as good as the integrity of that breeder  and one i am not going into on print i know of some irregularity's and have been informed of others at Angus show
 
if for instance you buy a gos pedigree registered etc and you breed from that and produce a saddelback type pig then something in the breeding has went wrong and you would be rightly upset that is when the relevant society would and should take your grievance on and investigate  through DNA testing just how this oddity did occur and on the DNA analysis  results whatever breeder was responsible  anything that went into the herd bookfrom that breeder  would and should be removed and compensation paid     but it is fraud
 
the choice is yours and yours allone  all the pedigree breeders on here will advocate pedigree birth notified pigs you have comeback with this    buy a cheap or dear  non registered pig you only have a pig  nothing more nothing less it may look like whatever you were told but that is it
cute looking pigs sell and ginger spotty stripy ones sell better  that is why the micro pigs are in demand when piglets but there are only so many mugs out there that would pay ten times the real value if not more for them
the choice is yours 

[Beewyched]

 
the registration with either the lop kunie or the bpa is only as good as the integrity of that breeder  and one i am not going into on print i know of some irregularity's and have been informed of others at Angus show
 

Oh come on Robert - spill 

[hughesy]

I just don't get how some people don't get the pedigree thing. I also don't get people who describe their stock as "pedigree" but not registered. I've even seen ebay listings describing well known hybrid chickens as "pure bred". As far as pigs are concerned if you want to breed then registered pedigree animals are essential unless you're just producing meat. Even then you need to know the  true identity of the parent stock to have any control of the outcome surely.

[oaklandspigs]

We have both registered, purebred and crossbred, and you takes your money !!
 
If I registered everything we kept, the BPA would be very rich, and we would be very poor!
 
The vast majority of our sales are to people who grow for meat, and they do not mind whether the pigs are registered, most buy for quality and to grow for tracibility (knowing where their meat comes from), certainty of care (knowing it has been brought up well), and the outdoor taste (knowing what it has been fed, and that it has been on real ground not concrete).
 
As stated above crossbred pigs can have hybrid vigour and grow faster, can look very cute (ginger saddlebacks look fantastic, as do extra spotty OSBxGOS's.
 
From our angle the important thing is that we keep registered lines going, and we do that by selling things that people can afford and want, and that means not restricting ourselves just to registereds.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

[thenovice]

When the breed societies were first formed im sure there must have been farmers out there in remote parts of the land who bred a certain breed for generations, but didnt sign up their herd. Did that make their pigs any less pedigree? When you look at breeds Just before or just after the second world war, they dont look exactly like the modern equivalent. Surely fashion, and breeders personal opinion alters the type of pig that fits the "type" set down by the clubs? Look at modern dogs, no resemblence to the breed of old, and sickly blood lines. Dont hate me, im just asking opinion 

[robert waddell]

dogs are a different thing altogether and hopefully a more understanding type of person that was the original pig breeders
pig breeds have been played with and are still being  played with
there are more breeders now than before with small herds some have an idea of breed genetics and sadly more have no idea it is very long term even in pigs to buy a sow from one line a boar from a totally different line mate them get the offspring rear them and breed from them again and produce pigs that are true to breed standard and correct in all aspects and be a good breeder
pig genetics have moved on a good deal even from the second world war and in all probability was the death knoll for traditionall breeds even the modern breeds are fraught with problems
 

[Tudful Tamworths]

I'm forever sending messages to people who advertise pigs for sale on various sites and claim their pigs are "pure bred" or "pedigree, but no papers". To quote the BPA, a pig without a pedigree is just a pig. Congratulations to those who have worked so hard to conserve bloodlines and keep them pure. Let's hope we can recruit a new generation of pig keepers who will carry on the good work.

[SallyintNorth]

So.... if I'm not a member of the BPA, and I have a pig whose ma was a registered pedigree OSB and whose father was a registered pedigree OSB, exactly which police force is it that can arrest me for calling my pig a pure-bred OSB?  Or, in fact, given that I have the pedigree of it (using the Oxford English Dictionary definition of pedigree), a pedigree pure-bred OSB? 

[Fowgill Farm]

So.... if I'm not a member of the BPA, and I have a pig whose ma was a registered pedigree OSB and whose father was a registered pedigree OSB, exactly which police force is it that can arrest me for calling my pig a pure-bred OSB?  Or, in fact, given that I have the pedigree of it (using the Oxford English Dictionary definition of pedigree), a pedigree pure-bred OSB?

Sally no need to get on your high horse its just terminology and how it is percieved in the pig world.
It just means that because you are not a member of the BPA you cannot register or birth note any of Meg's piglets even if she has a pedigree, the BPA are the controlling authority who isuue pedigrees for OSB pigs so if you sold a 'pure bred' pig you would not be able to produce an official pedigree for it even if its parentage was from two pedigree pigs! Bit like only the kennel club can issue pedigrees for dogs. No-one in particular polices it which is a great pity because only this week i had a lady ring me to say she had purchased 4 GOS gilts, she had bought them from a breeder who told the, they were 'pure bred', she had waited for over six months for the pedigrees and of course they haven't come because the breeder isn't registered with the BPA and her pigs although 'pure' are not pedigree so therefore their offspring will never be. I told the lady to send the gilts from bacon and buy in rgeistered stock but it turns out she has put two of the gilts who are now 10 months old into pig! She wanted to borrow my boar to put the other two in pig so i asked her what she would do with potentially 48/50 piglets come the end of October/Novemeber, she said oh i hadn't thought of that so again i said well send the two not in pig for bacon.    It really is important when buying pedigree stock to check the breeders credentials don't take their word that 'pure bred' means pedigree it doesn't. Ask what their HDL is and if they are in the BPA. If they have no answer to these two questions then they don't keep pedigree pigs (KK's & Lop being the exception).
Breeding pedigree enables records to be kept and monitor the ups and downs of the breed, The yearly breed survey allows the BPA and the societys to see which lines are at risk and take action on securing lines for the future as has been done with the Primrose & Princess Freda lines of the GOS.
HTH explain things
Mandy

[robert waddell]

who police it trading standards do   these jump on the bandwagon stuff the paying  the membership and registration fee
the gos breeders club got protected status for there breed  because the suppermarkets also jumped on the bandwagon selling gos pork  hence in another post i said if the pub is selling gos pork ask them for the paperwork otherwise they are breaking the law and advertising standards
far to often buyers are doey eyed when they see pigs and would buy rubbish ill and  mismarked pigs because the heart tells them   ask to see the paperwork and if that can not be produced walk away even if you have travelled a distance 

[Fowgill Farm]

who police it trading standards do   these jump on the bandwagon stuff the paying  the membership and registration fee
the gos breeders club got protected status for there breed  because the suppermarkets also jumped on the bandwagon selling gos pork  hence in another post i said if the pub is selling gos pork ask them for the paperwork otherwise they are breaking the law and advertising standards
far to often buyers are doey eyed when they see pigs and would buy rubbish ill and  mismarked pigs because the heart tells them   ask to see the paperwork and if that can not be produced walk away even if you have travelled a distance 

Yes Robert Trading standrds are alledgedly supposed to police it but try getting them to do anything   this IS why the GOS did go for protected status because the TS were at very best inept at interpreting the law, when the GOS club protested to them about Waitrose they no way wanted to take on the supermarket and we had to force their hand to do so! TS don't really care or have the time or inclination to do someone for mis selling pigs or pork, certainly not here in N Yorks as i can think of one particular GOS breeder local to me who is along the 'pure bred' line whom i have reported and yet he still coninues to advertise 'pure bred' GOS stock and pork as GOS when it bloody well isn't from pedigree pigs! TS is more interested in chasing chinese fireworks and dodgy Louis Vuitton handbags on the market!
Mandy 

[Tamsaddle]

On a semantic level, does "pedigree pig" mean that the pig has two registered pedigree pig parents with the BPA, or, in addition, that that pig itself is also registered, rather than just birth notified?  If the former, what is the correct term for describing a birth notified pig which may or may not be registered in the future?   I would have thought the term "purebred" could be taken to mean that both the pig's parents were purebred Tamworth, for example, but not necessarily BPA registered Tamworths.  I am somewhat confused - Tamsaddle