[VSS]

AH have told me too that I can only get my sheep flock number once I have bought the sheep and they arrive on my land.

You must have the CPH number before you can keep sheep but you actually only need a flock number if you are breeding sheep.

Interesting discussion - but please don't bash the farmers. While I accept that not all farmers are saints by any stretch of the imagination, they are generally a hard working bunch trying to make a living in a tough climate.

Yes, there is flouting of the regulations - but if the rules didn't make it so damned difficult to run a proper business there would be fewer instances of rule bending/breaking. If a rule is routinely broken or flouted, it is probably a bad rule.

Re farm assured - there are a lot of well run farms who are not farm assured simply because they cannot face the paperwork or because there is no financial benefit to doing so.

[HappyHippy]

I wrote a great big reply earlier - but it dissapeared 
 
When I got my CPH number through I was also sent the welfare codes for pigs, sheep, cattle and poultry (all of which can easily be found on the web, using google  ) I read them from cover to cover and still have them now to refer back to.
 
I think ultimately, the responsibility to learn good husbandy and all that's required from a legal point of view fall to the new or prospective owner. BUT breeders also have a duty of care to make sure they are not selling their stock into unsuitable homes and to recap the pertinent points to buyers (who probably won't know all that's involved if they're just starting out - after all, who does at that stage ?)
All people who buy pigs from me get a pack with background and useful info and a verbal reminder of the legalities regarding feeding, movements and records that need to be kept. Like Mandy, I come over all gestapo like and seem to manage to weed out the impulse buyers and folk who aren't prepared to do the right thing by my/their pigs    I've lost sales in the past and would happily do so again if I thought for even a second the owners weren't doing their homework.
 
But things happen, people who with the best will in the world have taken all reasonable steps still get times when they think Ooo errr - who can I ask    That's what is so good about TAS 
Karen 
 

[plumseverywhere]

Well, I was a nurse living in London 10 years ago so you can imagine how much learning I've had to do lately!
I totally agree with your point Robert in that your get a CPH and can buy what you like without having to prove ability to maintain welfare standards to anyone, you'd hope that people buying in animals would research, become confident and seek to strive to the highest standards. Sadly we all know cases that show this isn't always true. Some people with the best intentions in the world are just not cut out to keep livestock (pets or children)
I also echo Rosemary's point that we must feel comfortable to keep asking questions on here.


When I bought my goats (and I know I've recounted this before...) I approached a well known breeder who said "oh, you've never had goats before - no, I won't sell mine to anyone but an experienced keeper...".  Off I went, found some more goats for sale - little did I know that these goats came from someone with as little experience as I (which is why they were selling) so I bought in goats that had never been wormed, vaccinated and so on and I had no-one to turn to for help really at that point.
Another well known breeder and very good friend now, sold me a goat last year - we are in frequent contact and she pops out to visit her nanny goat and I know she's the other end of the phone.
So, what I'm saying really is...a good breeder will offer a level of 'aftercare' (as they still care about their animal surely?) and a good buyer will research, research and research more!


Some things are learnt on the job, this is unavoidable and where TAS and knowing a supportive local animal keeper can come in useful.  Making sure you have a good vet who understands large, farm animals - invaluable and worth shopping around to find 'the one'.


Yes I've made mistakes, I've had goats die (I still feel awful about losing one young kid all because he'd not been vacinnated) that will NEVER happen again but from a bad start to smallholding I now make sure that any animal bought in is well researched prior to even starting. Before PUffin kidded, I was hanging around other breeders watching/helping lambing and kidding. We have to put the effort in in order to be able to sit back on those sunny evenings, glass of wine in hand and enjoy watching our happy, healthy animals graze  [size=78%]  [/size]

[HelenVF]

So, what I'm saying really is...a good breeder will offer a level of 'aftercare' (as they still care about their animal surely?) and a good buyer will research, research and research more!


 [size=78%]  [/size]

The bloke we have just bought our goats from, I would consider a good breeder.  I asked him loads of questions when we went to have a look, and he wanted to deliver them himself and I showed him where they would be living to check it was ok.  We were chatting and said if there was anything that I wanted to know, just give him a shout - he's only 15 mins down the road.  I do feel that I can talk to him about all things goat so do feel I have the back up there.
 
We have joint experience of all things animal - sheep, cows, poultry, dogs so felt we were ready to take the leap into goats.
 
Helen

[Dan]

This thread worries me as I feel that judgements are being made about people who have the courage to reveal their ignorance by asking a question.

I have the same concern. I'm sure Robert wasn't suggesting that asking questions on here is a bad thing to do - no-one was born knowing this stuff, and even if you've got livestock and are facing a situation you don't know how to handle it's better to ask (and take the risk of being judged by those too small-minded to appreciate the asking) and learn than to try to muddle through.

Suzie the point of the post is you apply for your cph number and then left on your own  with all the legal obligations that animals entail
at one time you could apply for a driving license and there you go happy motoring  look at the restrictions before you can set foot in the driving seat (this has the makings of another thread) and the legal obligations that you take on in doing so

This is true in many walks of life though, not just animal husbandry / smallholding. You've cherry picked driving, but you don't need a licence or the state's approval to have children, buy (and use) a chainsaw, ride a bicycle, breed cats, and so on. All of these have the potential to harm yourself and others, yet anyone can do them.

And in every walk of life there is a broad spectrum of responsibility - from those who will go to the nth degree to understand what they're doing and make the best of it, through to those who act on a whim and deal with the consequences as they arise.

We're fortunate enough to live in a libertarian society where the balance between regulation and freedom to act is definitely stacked in favour of the latter.

In this case the question is whether additional regulation (which is what I guess Robert's hinting at) would be worthwhile, and the benefit outweight the cost/burden? Is it just about provision of information (maybe they could provide a link here with the CPH number  ) or should there really be some sort of test of competence?

[robert waddell]

i said this to Annie once and she has reminded me of it on several times         nobody went to bed at night and knew nothing about any subject then awakened the next day and knew everything there was to know on that subject
Dan you cant buy a new top handle chain saw without a certificate of competence
i am steering away from the children subject
there are more regulations now than ever but also more aspiring to the countryway of life
in the building industry if you are not trained ticketed for this that and the next thing you don't get in some training costs thousands and no guarantee of employment at the end      to me having been involved in the building industry view this as a money making scheme and despite all this training tickets safety inductions there are still fatality's  some contracts infact have it written in that they are likely to have fatality's (for insurance purposes) and if they don't it is a bonus
it does not matter if it is motoring     livestock       haulage  or anything there will always be somebody that  omits or cuts corners

[luckylady]

This thread worries me as I feel that judgements are being made about people who have the courage to reveal their ignorance by asking a question.

Couldn't agree more.  It did take courage for me to ask a question for fear of judgement and I do feel that judgements are expressed on occasions but for the most part the feedback I have had, and have read on other threads, has been exemplary.  As a novice sheep keeper I have asked some questions for reassurance that I actually did know the answer and not because I am ignorant and asked other questions because I am and acknowledge it.  Despite extensive reading, internetting, learning from farmer friends and my work colleagues (vets) before even contemplating getting my orphan lambs I knew that only practical experience could take me to the next level of knowledge.  It took me 3 years to take the plunge and when I did I felt that the local AH office let me down by not providing guidance with the regulation paperwork for my flock as they said they would, hence my ignorance.
Everyone needs support in new ventures and thats the reason many newbies join TAS.  Some written responses may appear judgemental when it is not the intention but the recipient wouldn't necessarily know that.
The trouble with e-communication is the deprivation of human facial expression.  Yes the emoticons are a useful tool (and fun) but cannot replace the human smile, frown etc and it's resultant response.
 

[Plantoid]

I find the whole thing interesting.
 When we had  small mammals around towards the end of the business the drivers suddenly had to have a NVQ qualification in animal welfare for each species transported .
 
The RSPCA tried the " not  trained in husbandry or qualified thing " on me and got short shrift for I was advising several local vets & god knows how many pet shops .At the time I was having a full business vet inspection once a month from a contracted vetinary business.
Plus there was at the time no recognised husbandry qualifications around.
 
 Pehaps we should indeed move to the Swiss system that says train your self to the national standard . Pass with a good mark and then build your place to approved designs and systems  and have it officially inspected by a trained compentant inspector who is part of the government animal welfare programme .
If you pass ... you get licenced to grow nominated animals with annual cert of competence training for each animal species you want to continue growing for the next year. You'd also have set maximum numbers of anuimals you would be alowed to grow  with respect to housing and staff manning levels.
 
 Where I used to love it was not uncommon to see over a hundred half starved horses knee deep in a deeply enhanced dung  mud field fighting / biting  each other for fodder at the hay tumbler.
 
Or to see a hundred or so pigs out in a  fields getting sun burnt in high summer in arcs with no wallow areas or clean piped water troughs . Instead they were in dust bowls with a bowser of four day old hot water to fill a few troughs.

[jellybean]

There are plenty of places to go to learn how to do things.    If in animals there in DEFRA or the Ag Department.  You also have older growers who sometimes become farm advisers.    You generally have a group who get together to form a  unit or a club. then there is the library for those who have time to read. There are also forums like this one which is great, but there are others as well.   There is also the traveling vet who will come to you.

A few more questions lands you some grain and all you have to do is pay for it.  The Market advertises in the local  rag the prices per kg or lb or head for the livestock that you have sold.................and the money somehow gets in to your bank account.

And best of all man has created all of this we were not born with any of these ideas that have so far been mentioned. 

But for the interested person   they will seek out the information required to do the best by whatever they grow or treasure or nurture....and most of what we do as adults we learnt at school if we took any notice of the poor old school teacher standing at the front of the room.  It is called learning....and we all do it at some time ,done it at some time and never done it at all!

[Lesley Silvester]

Robert, thank you.  I have kept the paperwork and will dig out my movement book to record it.
 
As far as being judged for asking silly questions is concerned, so far I don't think I have been but if at any time I am, I hope I have the sense to ignore it and just concentrate on the advice that I know will be forthcoming.  That way I will gain knowledge.  If anyone wants to suggest I am silly or ignorant, let them.  I've been insulted by experts in the past (married to one for 22 years) and I don't take any notice any more.
 
Having said that, and having for years been knocked back by judgemental remarks, I know it is easy to feel put down so all I would say is ask your questions.  That is showing you care about your animals and that is the sort of people I would rather be mixing with.

[Dan]

Having said that, and having for years been knocked back by judgemental remarks, I know it is easy to feel put down so all I would say is ask your questions.  That is showing you care about your animals and that is the sort of people I would rather be mixing with.

 

[omnipeasant]

A couple of you have mentioned the bad practice of leaving dead sheep out in the field. There is a problem and a dilemma here for law abiding farmers. I certainly don't like sloppy animal management, but on our place we do leave the occassional sheep for the buzzards and Kites (well the magpies and crows take advantage too) and while this is an infringement of animal health rules it seems that in moderation it is a god send for the buzzards. If the said sheep died through bad management or neglect that is a different matter.

[Small Farmer]

Ask any questions you like. 


Stupid people are ones who don't know and don't ask
Clever people ask the questions everyone else wanted to ask but didn't 
Experts used to know what the answers were (derived from Ex meaning has-been and Spurt meaning a drip under pressure)
Heroes - what a guy in a boat does


BUT there is a search function in the menu above between HELP and PROFILE  because a lot of questions have already been asked and people get grumpy answering the same question after a few goes.  Google is good for facts and legislation, TAS is good for experience and interpretation.