The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Community => Coffee Lounge => Topic started by: robert waddell on May 29, 2012, 11:05:48 am
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i think this is the best board to post as i would need to post on sheep cattle pigs goats and horses
now anybody can apply for a cph number get a flock/ herd number buy whatever animal is there choice and instantly you are wholly responsible for that stock while living and dead
no exam no certificates of competence bugger all really other than a couple of numbers
and all legally binding the welfare of animal act the wild dog act and others relating to the feed /storage movement /transportation
should it be the responsibility of the issuer of the cph number to directly inform newbies of there obligation legally in getting stock or should it be left to that newbie to go on who wants to be a millionare style asking a neighbour on a forum or pot luck with what they think is right
now it is not just newbies that flout the system i know of farmers that have dobbed other farmers in when it should have been the complainer that was investigated
the animal movement book has always been on the go and i could never work out why the TS person came out to sign it every year it could have been dates you went to the pub in essence it was a token exercise although if you purchase an official one it clearly tells you what to do in the event of a sudden death we adhered to this many farmers just don't give a s**t
everybody input is welcome :farmer:
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now anybody can apply for a cph number get a flock/ herd number buy whatever animal is there choice and instantly you are wholly responsible for that stock while living and dead
Shocking. It's the same with having children ;D ;D ..... anybody can do it....... no licence required ;D ;D
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In my opinion the same should probably apply for domestic pets as well given the number of numpties I've seen or heard about that are deliberately mistreating theirs or just downright bad owners through lack of experience/knowledge.
I definitely agree with the slightly more controversial aspect about whether it should be the same for couples having children...
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I think it's scary; I still find out new things and wonder if I should have been doing them...doesn't help that you don't just go though DEFRA - some things are trading standards, some things are local bodies, etc etc etc. Very confusing overall.
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now anybody can apply for a cph number get a flock/ herd number buy whatever animal is there choice and instantly you are wholly responsible for that stock while living and dead
Shocking. It's the same with having children ;D ;D ..... anybody can do it....... no licence required ;D ;D
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D . That really made me laugh! S'true. Have to say children (well my child anyway) are way easier than sheep.
Interesting post Robert - I think the animal health dept could save a lot of money and be way more effective in their goal if they had a standard 'checklist' of pertinant regulations 'in a nutshell' that they sent out with every new flock number/herd number - perhaps that you sign and send back. Rather than the arse covering visit I recieved ONE year after I had started (where they wouldnt even visit the animals and only wanted to talk about sheep records, not pigs too). Also my year here has suggested to me that I am the only bugger for miles who does worry about the regulations!! :o Never mind burying lambs - It is not uncommon practice in this valley of expereinced farmers to see fallen adult stock left in the field and then bones removed 6 months later. Tagging also seems to be optional (untill sale?). I do know a good one in next valley thankfully who I ask advice from. But you are right, it can be totally phone a friend.
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I think you've raised a very relevant point Robert, one I've been chewing over recently too. Someone will say - ok I've bought these animals, now what do I do? You have to wonder why they didn't find out about them first. Sometimes we hear about what amounts to out and out cruelty to animals caused by the total ignorance of the owner - the sheep my OH and I took on after they had been rescued (which we then passed on to Lochbyre :wave: ) are such a case - someone thought it was a fashion statement of some kind to own sheep but had absolutely no understanding of the care required to keep them happy and healthy.
But your point is really - whose responsibilty is it to make sure all animal owners have the requisite knowledge? To some extent it is up to the individual - but clearly that doesn't always work. The Government does try by implementing rules and laws, but they don't cover everything, and human nature being what it is, some people see laws as only being there to be flouted or broken.
That just leaves peer pressure, in other words the rest of us have to take some responsibilty. That means that when we sell stock we must make sure that we have passed on as much knowledge as we can about both how to care for the animals, and the rules and regs that must be complied with. We must also be prepared to stand up and object if we see that someone is mistreating animals, be it deliberately or through neglect caused by ignorance or a lack of interest.
One way of helping to combat the ignorance is via the internet and discussions such as this, but the worst offenders probably are not sufficiently interested to even try to improve, so won't be here on TAS.
So I don't think there's a single answer Robert - but I'm really glad you have raised the point.
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Same with dogs - yes, I know my hobby horse, but the principle is exactly the same. The KC let any t d or h register dogs no matter what health checks have been done and with no checks at all on the premises where breeding takes place. Any old sod can breed whether they register them or not, no health checks done there either. I say bring back a reasonable dog licence and ring fence the income for proper checks!
I'm sure the same can be said for ALL animals! CPH and other licences MUST be checked up on. They take the money and channel it into other places - that is WRONG!
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Agree with what is being said but do think that it would make good sense for them to at least send out the paper work/record keeping material that they expect you to be keeping. To say ... ask the person you are buying the sheep from .... doesnt in my opinion really work. I ask lots of questions, not only on here but also of local farmers, etc. and get many different answers to the same question. When it comes to care there are probably different ways of doing things and probably in lots of cases no right or wrong answers.Read as much as you can and talk to as many people as you can and then use your common sense and judgement. We all have to begin somewhere and I dont believe anyone is ever an expert ..... all should still be learning all the time.When it comes to actual concrete record keeping then yes I think that it is their responsibility to tell me what information they want kept and in what format ..... just as the tax people or whoever send their forms to be completed.
Care of animals is slightly different. Not only farm animals but as Doganjo says dogs or indeed any living thing. Yes SQ. ....... very true ..... as an ex primary teacher ..... it applies very much to children also.Neglect .... both deliberate or through ignorance.
Cor Robert ;) ;D ..... dont know how you would go about putting right all those wrongs .... record keeping is one thing but care/responsibility ..... that is one BIG issue. FW is right too in that the very people that you most need to reach are unreachable in many cases.
Yes FiB, I ve seen and smelt :o dead adult sheep .... def. not even buried ..... dont know what happens with their records? Talking to local farmers the rules dont seem to matter a whole lot, nor does a lot else. So it maybe easy for anyone to get a number but is it these new keepers that break most rules/ give inappropriate care or many of the old hands?There really is only one local farmer whos advice I really trust in and wouldnt want any of them except him to handle my stock ...since I believe all living things should be dealt with, with at least some thought and dignity.
Cor ...... going for a lie down now!!!! ;D
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Rather than the arse covering visit I recieved ONE year after I had started
We've never had a visit yet.
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Nor me ... so as far as they know I have no records
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the selective breeding thing Hitler tried that at least with animals if the breeding programme does not work out you can always eat them
the dog ugly highly intelligent man married a beautiful thick as s**t woman all the kids had the dads looks and the mothers intelligence
the guy that started the nursing home next to me always wanted animals he had yellow labs and did breed them he had geese ducks quail and hens Freddie got the most of them and the remainder were killed on the road he also had goats and sheep
after the home was opened his sheep died at the back of the wall had he not started his campaign of hate towards us we would have told him instead we left it till we could stand the smell no longer and reported him no action taken he obviously talked his way out of it he was on holiday down in England and was coming up through cumbria when he came across an agric show pulled in left his dogs in the car and they had to be rescued from heat stress he did not talk his way out of that one and was done now had the authority's acted on the dead sheep he should have been banned from keeping livestock so you can imagine the care and attention that was lavished on his granny farming
his goats were getting feral and thought my silage bales were the best thing to climb on
yes just how would you or could you regulate who has animals :farmer:
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Animal health refused to give me a flock number until after I'd bought the sheep, then they said to use the same as the goats, that makes real sense, all they want to do is cover their arses with movement sheets. why can't the authorities all get covered with the same umberella, Trading standards, Defra, Animal health. they might even share info and plug some of the loopholes.
And yes to parenting exams, after our fostering experiences they are desperately wanted.
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For those outside Scotland seeking government guidance, Defra still has a long way to go to catch up with their Scottish counterparts but they are trying to make it easier. They are putting their efforts into the Business Link website; increasingly when you look things up via Defra you will be routed there. They try to bring together the various aspects which, as you all have said, are dealt with by different government departments.
One start point is currently here:
http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg/action/layer?topicId=1083732033&furlname=livestock&furlparam=livestock&ref=http%3A//www.defra.gov.uk/food-farm/animals/&domain=www.businesslink.gov.uk (http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg/action/layer?topicId=1083732033&furlname=livestock&furlparam=livestock&ref=http%3A//www.defra.gov.uk/food-farm/animals/&domain=www.businesslink.gov.uk)
but if that link fails (which over time it will), start at Defra -> Food and Farming -> Farm Animals; there'll be a link from there to the current Business Link pages.
Farmers are policed in that there are both regular and random inspections and so on that audit on-farm practices. Failure to comply would result in deductions to the Single Farm Payment, which no farmer can afford.
Farmers who subscribe to the Farm Assured scheme (meaning that meat originating on their farm can be marketed with the Little Red Tractor logo) get additional and more arduous annual inspections.
If you really want all livestock keepers to be better policed, then boycott all meat that doesn't bear the Red Tractor logo; make your local butcher buy only Farm Assured meat to sell in his shop. But none of us here want to do that - we like buying /eating the locally-reared rare breed / free range meat we and other smallholders produce!
So it's a good question, robert, and there are no easy answers.
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Add horses to that. Go to any livery yard to see complete b*****ks being spouted by experienced owners to anyone daft enough to listen.
The allocation of a flock number (I think) triggers a notification to the local authority who have the job of inspecting. We've never been inspected or even contacted but keep all the records up to date just in case.
Our vet's practice runs education evenings sponsored by DEFRA every few months which have been really useful. The last ones have covered calving and lambing problems including Schmallenburg. Loads of practical advice and decades of experience for nothing, plus a really good free buffet each time.
You need no qualifications, experience or sense to have children (you wouldn't bother if you knew what was coming) but to adopt is the most tortuous long-drawn out procedure. It's all in "the best interests of the child" as if anyone knew what that was.
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farm assured and the wee red tractor ain't worth jack s**t the pig farmer that was going to be done for cruelty was in that scheme and QMS used jimmy doherty to front there campaign to get more pork sold
pork is still getting less sales so that did not work :farmer:
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There will be lots of schemes where poor examples can be found. It won't always mean that the entire scheme is worthless. If no-one ever did anything that was anything other than 100% effective 100% of the time ... guess how much would get done? Square root of b* all, is how much.
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Robert, you've got me worried now. When my goat died in March I had her collected but I did nothing about notifying anyone (except my friends on here). Now wondering if I should have done anything official.
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record it in the movement book and keep the paper work you received when it was collected :farmer:
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Animal health refused to give me a flock number until after I'd bought the sheep, then they said to use the same as the goats, that makes real sense, all they want to do is cover their arses with movement sheets. why can't the authorities all get covered with the same umberella, Trading standards, Defra, Animal health. they might even share info and plug some of the loopholes.
Tizaala,
AH have told me too that I can only get my sheep flock number once I have bought the sheep and they arrive on my land. For pigs I had to have the herd number before I bought them. It would be so much simpler if one system was followed for all.
As for Roberts original thread, we all have to start somewhere. I am a complete novice but have read books, been on courses etc before getting my animals. None of this properly prepares you for the hands on experience when you get your own and much of it is learning on the hoof, so to speak. Having said that I would hate my animals to suffer from my ignorance so am starting small (actually only have enough land for small which is probably a good thing) so that I can give them more individual attention.
Sally
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Animal health refused to give me a flock number until after I'd bought the sheep, then they said to use the same as the goats, that makes real sense, all they want to do is cover their arses with movement sheets.
But that's the way it works - you have your herd/flock number for animals, then the suffix eg /01 shows which animals you keep. It would be utter chaos if you had a different herd/flock mark for each species :o
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I think I might be one to jump into things. However, in my defense, I do read up about care etc and do make sure I have people around me who I can ask, in person. I am started to get a bit worried about asking stupid questions on here now.
Helen
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I think I might be one to jump into things. However, in my defense, I do read up about care etc and do make sure I have people around me who I can ask, in person. I am started to get a bit worried about asking stupid questions on here now.
Helen
It's been said before - the only stupid question is the one you don't ask. The ethos on TAS has always been to be helpful and supportive and not scare folk off from asking. We're all learning - even the most experienced of us, so please don't stop asking questions.
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Some good points made (particularly re children ;) ).
I have to say, when we registered for our CPH number, no guidance was provided at all. I now also get various annual census type forms to fill in, which are firstly very confusing, and secondly not particularly relevant to what we’re doing here.
Now, I haven’t got a load of animals running round that I don’t know how to care for – that would just be cruel. However, I suppose there’s now nothing to stop me from doing that if I wanted to!
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yes rosemary i agree with what you wrote
the day you stop learning is the day you should give it up :farmer:
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Robert raises a good topic and i have to confess that when i sell weaners i interrogate prospective owners like the gestapo and if i don't like the answers they give or the dumb questions they ask me they don't get any weaners. My attitude has cost me some sales but thats my ethics. Lots of people do their homework a lot don't , had a women this week who OH has ben doing some building work for, oh i'd like a couple of pigs says she so OH gets me to call her for a chat, then when i mentioned the hardest part was sending them to the butchers she went very quiet thanked me for my time and has never mentioned them again! People have these whims and just don't think things thro which is why i sometimes get very cross on the piggy forum and why i wrote the articles for the GOS website, to try to get people to think about what they're taking on.
Mandy
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As for Roberts original thread, we all have to start somewhere. I am a complete novice but have read books, been on courses etc before getting my animals. None of this properly prepares you for the hands on experience when you get your own and much of it is learning on the hoof, so to speak.
It's been said before - the only stupid question is the one you don't ask. The ethos on TAS has always been to be helpful and supportive and not scare folk off from asking. We're all learning - even the most experienced of us, so please don't stop asking questions.
I completely agree. That's what's so great about this forum. You can ask a question and not feel judged.
This thread worries me as I feel that judgements are being made about people who have the courage to reveal their ignorance by asking a question.
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Suzie the point of the post is you apply for your cph number and then left on your own with all the legal obligations that animals entail
at one time you could apply for a driving license and there you go happy motoring look at the restrictions before you can set foot in the driving seat (this has the makings of another thread) and the legal obligations that you take on in doing so :farmer:
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Robert,
I do agree about applying for a CPH and then being left on your own. I know I haven't been alone in asking which is the best book/website and asking other TAS'ers for help and advice.
If the they could organise themselves in such a way as to send out information packs, links, places to go to for advice it would be a real help to us newbies. I guess its a bit like taking your horse to water, you can't make him drink, not everyone would necessarily read the information pack but if they were serious about it, it would certainly be a good start.
Sally
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DEFRA should be able to turn up on your doorstep at any day and check out your husbandry. There's too many people over-producing without thinking about the consequences, buying in livestock without any prior knowledge of its requierements and with a lack of funding to help the animal via professional help if something goes wrong. Duty of care should be paramount to all those with livestock, its a responsibility and if you don't have the time then sell your stock on.
I dread to think about what's happening out there - DIY castrations, wrongly killing etc, animal cruelty at it's worst.
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I will admit that when I rang about my cph number, I was just asked for a postcode and nothing else. They don't know how much land we have at all. I thought it was incredibly easy to do, almost too easy.
Helen
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AH have told me too that I can only get my sheep flock number once I have bought the sheep and they arrive on my land.
You must have the CPH number before you can keep sheep but you actually only need a flock number if you are breeding sheep.
Interesting discussion - but please don't bash the farmers. While I accept that not all farmers are saints by any stretch of the imagination, they are generally a hard working bunch trying to make a living in a tough climate.
Yes, there is flouting of the regulations - but if the rules didn't make it so damned difficult to run a proper business there would be fewer instances of rule bending/breaking. If a rule is routinely broken or flouted, it is probably a bad rule.
Re farm assured - there are a lot of well run farms who are not farm assured simply because they cannot face the paperwork or because there is no financial benefit to doing so.
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I wrote a great big reply earlier - but it dissapeared ???
When I got my CPH number through I was also sent the welfare codes for pigs, sheep, cattle and poultry (all of which can easily be found on the web, using google ;) ) I read them from cover to cover and still have them now to refer back to.
I think ultimately, the responsibility to learn good husbandy and all that's required from a legal point of view fall to the new or prospective owner. BUT breeders also have a duty of care to make sure they are not selling their stock into unsuitable homes and to recap the pertinent points to buyers (who probably won't know all that's involved if they're just starting out - after all, who does at that stage ?)
All people who buy pigs from me get a pack with background and useful info and a verbal reminder of the legalities regarding feeding, movements and records that need to be kept. Like Mandy, I come over all gestapo like and seem to manage to weed out the impulse buyers and folk who aren't prepared to do the right thing by my/their pigs ;) I've lost sales in the past and would happily do so again if I thought for even a second the owners weren't doing their homework.
But things happen, people who with the best will in the world have taken all reasonable steps still get times when they think Ooo errr - who can I ask ;) That's what is so good about TAS :thumbsup:
Karen :wave:
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Well, I was a nurse living in London 10 years ago so you can imagine how much learning I've had to do lately!
I totally agree with your point Robert in that your get a CPH and can buy what you like without having to prove ability to maintain welfare standards to anyone, you'd hope that people buying in animals would research, become confident and seek to strive to the highest standards. Sadly we all know cases that show this isn't always true. Some people with the best intentions in the world are just not cut out to keep livestock (pets or children)
I also echo Rosemary's point that we must feel comfortable to keep asking questions on here.
When I bought my goats (and I know I've recounted this before...) I approached a well known breeder who said "oh, you've never had goats before - no, I won't sell mine to anyone but an experienced keeper...". Off I went, found some more goats for sale - little did I know that these goats came from someone with as little experience as I (which is why they were selling) so I bought in goats that had never been wormed, vaccinated and so on and I had no-one to turn to for help really at that point.
Another well known breeder and very good friend now, sold me a goat last year - we are in frequent contact and she pops out to visit her nanny goat and I know she's the other end of the phone.
So, what I'm saying really is...a good breeder will offer a level of 'aftercare' (as they still care about their animal surely?) and a good buyer will research, research and research more!
Some things are learnt on the job, this is unavoidable and where TAS and knowing a supportive local animal keeper can come in useful. Making sure you have a good vet who understands large, farm animals - invaluable and worth shopping around to find 'the one'.
Yes I've made mistakes, I've had goats die (I still feel awful about losing one young kid all because he'd not been vacinnated) that will NEVER happen again but from a bad start to smallholding I now make sure that any animal bought in is well researched prior to even starting. Before PUffin kidded, I was hanging around other breeders watching/helping lambing and kidding. We have to put the effort in in order to be able to sit back on those sunny evenings, glass of wine in hand and enjoy watching our happy, healthy animals graze :) [size=78%] [/size]
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So, what I'm saying really is...a good breeder will offer a level of 'aftercare' (as they still care about their animal surely?) and a good buyer will research, research and research more!
[size=78%] [/size]
The bloke we have just bought our goats from, I would consider a good breeder. I asked him loads of questions when we went to have a look, and he wanted to deliver them himself and I showed him where they would be living to check it was ok. We were chatting and said if there was anything that I wanted to know, just give him a shout - he's only 15 mins down the road. I do feel that I can talk to him about all things goat so do feel I have the back up there.
We have joint experience of all things animal - sheep, cows, poultry, dogs so felt we were ready to take the leap into goats.
Helen
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This thread worries me as I feel that judgements are being made about people who have the courage to reveal their ignorance by asking a question.
I have the same concern. I'm sure Robert wasn't suggesting that asking questions on here is a bad thing to do - no-one was born knowing this stuff, and even if you've got livestock and are facing a situation you don't know how to handle it's better to ask (and take the risk of being judged by those too small-minded to appreciate the asking) and learn than to try to muddle through.
Suzie the point of the post is you apply for your cph number and then left on your own with all the legal obligations that animals entail
at one time you could apply for a driving license and there you go happy motoring look at the restrictions before you can set foot in the driving seat (this has the makings of another thread) and the legal obligations that you take on in doing so
This is true in many walks of life though, not just animal husbandry / smallholding. You've cherry picked driving, but you don't need a licence or the state's approval to have children, buy (and use) a chainsaw, ride a bicycle, breed cats, and so on. All of these have the potential to harm yourself and others, yet anyone can do them.
And in every walk of life there is a broad spectrum of responsibility - from those who will go to the nth degree to understand what they're doing and make the best of it, through to those who act on a whim and deal with the consequences as they arise.
We're fortunate enough to live in a libertarian society where the balance between regulation and freedom to act is definitely stacked in favour of the latter.
In this case the question is whether additional regulation (which is what I guess Robert's hinting at) would be worthwhile, and the benefit outweight the cost/burden? Is it just about provision of information (maybe they could provide a link here with the CPH number :D ) or should there really be some sort of test of competence?
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i said this to Annie once and she has reminded me of it on several times nobody went to bed at night and knew nothing about any subject then awakened the next day and knew everything there was to know on that subject
Dan you cant buy a new top handle chain saw without a certificate of competence
i am steering away from the children subject
there are more regulations now than ever but also more aspiring to the countryway of life
in the building industry if you are not trained ticketed for this that and the next thing you don't get in some training costs thousands and no guarantee of employment at the end to me having been involved in the building industry view this as a money making scheme and despite all this training tickets safety inductions there are still fatality's some contracts infact have it written in that they are likely to have fatality's (for insurance purposes) and if they don't it is a bonus
it does not matter if it is motoring livestock haulage or anything there will always be somebody that omits or cuts corners :farmer:
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This thread worries me as I feel that judgements are being made about people who have the courage to reveal their ignorance by asking a question.
Couldn't agree more. It did take courage for me to ask a question for fear of judgement and I do feel that judgements are expressed on occasions but for the most part the feedback I have had, and have read on other threads, has been exemplary. As a novice sheep keeper I have asked some questions for reassurance that I actually did know the answer and not because I am ignorant and asked other questions because I am and acknowledge it. Despite extensive reading, internetting, learning from farmer friends and my work colleagues (vets) before even contemplating getting my orphan lambs I knew that only practical experience could take me to the next level of knowledge. It took me 3 years to take the plunge and when I did I felt that the local AH office let me down by not providing guidance with the regulation paperwork for my flock as they said they would, hence my ignorance.
Everyone needs support in new ventures and thats the reason many newbies join TAS. Some written responses may appear judgemental when it is not the intention but the recipient wouldn't necessarily know that.
The trouble with e-communication is the deprivation of human facial expression. Yes the emoticons are a useful tool (and fun) but cannot replace the human smile, frown etc and it's resultant response.
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I find the whole thing interesting.
When we had small mammals around towards the end of the business the drivers suddenly had to have a NVQ qualification in animal welfare for each species transported .
The RSPCA tried the " not trained in husbandry or qualified thing " on me and got short shrift for I was advising several local vets & god knows how many pet shops .At the time I was having a full business vet inspection once a month from a contracted vetinary business.
Plus there was at the time no recognised husbandry qualifications around.
Pehaps we should indeed move to the Swiss system that says train your self to the national standard . Pass with a good mark and then build your place to approved designs and systems and have it officially inspected by a trained compentant inspector who is part of the government animal welfare programme .
If you pass ... you get licenced to grow nominated animals with annual cert of competence training for each animal species you want to continue growing for the next year. You'd also have set maximum numbers of anuimals you would be alowed to grow with respect to housing and staff manning levels.
Where I used to love it was not uncommon to see over a hundred half starved horses knee deep in a deeply enhanced dung mud field fighting / biting each other for fodder at the hay tumbler.
Or to see a hundred or so pigs out in a fields getting sun burnt in high summer in arcs with no wallow areas or clean piped water troughs . Instead they were in dust bowls with a bowser of four day old hot water to fill a few troughs.
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There are plenty of places to go to learn how to do things. If in animals there in DEFRA or the Ag Department. You also have older growers who sometimes become farm advisers. You generally have a group who get together to form a unit or a club. then there is the library for those who have time to read. There are also forums like this one which is great, but there are others as well. There is also the traveling vet who will come to you.
A few more questions lands you some grain and all you have to do is pay for it. The Market advertises in the local rag the prices per kg or lb or head for the livestock that you have sold.................and the money somehow gets in to your bank account.
And best of all man has created all of this we were not born with any of these ideas that have so far been mentioned.
But for the interested person they will seek out the information required to do the best by whatever they grow or treasure or nurture....and most of what we do as adults we learnt at school if we took any notice of the poor old school teacher standing at the front of the room. It is called learning....and we all do it at some time ,done it at some time and never done it at all!
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Robert, thank you. I have kept the paperwork and will dig out my movement book to record it.
As far as being judged for asking silly questions is concerned, so far I don't think I have been but if at any time I am, I hope I have the sense to ignore it and just concentrate on the advice that I know will be forthcoming. That way I will gain knowledge. If anyone wants to suggest I am silly or ignorant, let them. I've been insulted by experts in the past (married to one for 22 years) and I don't take any notice any more.
Having said that, and having for years been knocked back by judgemental remarks, I know it is easy to feel put down so all I would say is ask your questions. That is showing you care about your animals and that is the sort of people I would rather be mixing with.
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Having said that, and having for years been knocked back by judgemental remarks, I know it is easy to feel put down so all I would say is ask your questions. That is showing you care about your animals and that is the sort of people I would rather be mixing with.
:thumbsup:
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A couple of you have mentioned the bad practice of leaving dead sheep out in the field. There is a problem and a dilemma here for law abiding farmers. I certainly don't like sloppy animal management, but on our place we do leave the occassional sheep for the buzzards and Kites (well the magpies and crows take advantage too) and while this is an infringement of animal health rules it seems that in moderation it is a god send for the buzzards. If the said sheep died through bad management or neglect that is a different matter.
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Ask any questions you like.
Stupid people are ones who don't know and don't ask
Clever people ask the questions everyone else wanted to ask but didn't
Experts used to know what the answers were (derived from Ex meaning has-been and Spurt meaning a drip under pressure)
Heroes - what a guy in a boat does
BUT there is a search function in the menu above between HELP and PROFILE because a lot of questions have already been asked and people get grumpy answering the same question after a few goes. Google is good for facts and legislation, TAS is good for experience and interpretation.