[fleurky]

Humm, another casualty looms I fear. I have 3 recently orphans in the paddock, approx 5 weeks old.  The smallest (#95) won't take milk but does seem to have moved onto creep and grass and has stopped squitting (still looks rubbish though).

The pair (#139'ers) have been taking milk, but this morning one of them is uninterested, has a wet muzzle (not dripping), serious squits and is looking very hollow.  All have been treated for worms and cocci.  Any idea about  what I'm dealing with this time?! Two of them had gluey noses yesterday, but seem clear today. No coughing that I've noticed.

Would it be foolish to put them all in a stable out of this weather (they have a small knocked up shelter) or would it be detrimental to be too soft with them? They seem to be keeping dry despite the dreadful weather conditions.

Oh yes one other thing if anyone could help, I was told that teeth grinding in lambs is a sure sign of constipation.  Is this true?

Thank you!


 

[Haylo-peapod]

Sheep tend to grind their teeth if they are stressed or in pain. It doesn't necessarily mean the cause is constipation.

Regarding the lamb, the wet muzzle sounds a bit like watery mouth but I've only come across it in lambs less than a week of age so I don't know if it can arise later. Does the lambs belly sound rattly as this is another symptom of watery mouth.

[feldar]

Hi Fleurky
I'm afraid this can be the trouble with orphans, sometimes they just will not do no matter how hard you try.
The weather could have a lot to do with it but it does sound like a touch of cocci.
If all were taking creep well i would be tempted to cut their milk and push them on creep only. sometimes their bellies' bacteria just can't cope with the ph changes of solids and milk.  the creep pellets have milk powder in them anyway and all they need to grow on with.
If you have a good vet maybe give them a call and try to sort out over the phone rather than pay for a full callout

[fleurky]

Thank you both very much - but I've just been out and she's dead.  Crikey, they really are an uphill struggle!

Feldar - I had no idea about not mixing the two - I wonder if thats why the last one suddenly failed when he moved onto creep? The pair spent about a week AWOL after the ewe died.  They were only finally caught and bought in a couple of days ago with instruction to try and get them to take a bottle once a day (there were eating grass but scouring badly).   Do you think bottling her after a week on the hard stuff could have done it?
Gah!

I'll ask the farmer to do an autopsy. He'll be getting fed up with me at this rate!

[Haylo-peapod]

Oh fleurky, I'm so very sorry 

[MrsJ]

Oh what a shame.  But like you say, they are an uphill struggle. 

[fleurky]

Thank you =), I'm getting quite hardened to it now, as thats the 7th I've lost out of 10, some having lasted over 4 weeks.  =/
Farmer has just been over to pick her up (digestive shut down he thinks) and check on the other two.  Usual advice - "Try and keep them alive otherwise they'll be dead before you know it." =)

On the plus side I have learnt so much and hopefully will be able to spot a problem earlier next year, or at least be more realistic about their chances.
 
In the meantime I still have the 2 orphans outside  and crappy little Bambi Lamb, who has been clever enough to sneak in and take over the dog bed nearest the boiler. My poor OH.

So with 3 still to die, I will no doubt be back very soon screaming for help!
Thanks as ever!

[feldar]

Oh i am sorry!
These things do happen though and orphans can be an uphill struggle but worth it when it goes right. Don't get too disheartened, sheep do this to you sometimes.
We used to do a lot of orphans at one time but now with so many sheep about i find i just don't have the time so we tend to pass ours on to people who do.
I have to say i've had really good strong orphans  doing well and i've found them dead in the pen but it's usually always been when the gut flora balance isn't right around the time of weaning off milk. The train of thought is the gas in the stomach expands and presses on the heart causing it to fail.
Some farmers say the milk should be watered down and you wean them off gradually others say cut the milk right out once they are eating creep/solids wel,l so it's a bit of a minefield.
the last time i did some was 2 years ago and i cut the milk out at 5 weeks old they bleated a bit but soon got over it but you do need them to eating solids well for this to happen.
Good luck and don't give up!

[Haylo-peapod]

Hi Feldar, picking up on your comment about creep and milk - are lambs suckling from their mothers OK on both or is it a problem to them too?

In the past I have started creep feeding the lambs with ewe & lamb mix from about 3 weeks of age and not had problems. This year I am feeding lamb pellets so I guess these are the ones that you say have milk powder in them?

I am now puzzled as to what I should be doing - feed creep or not feed creep. If it is a 'yes' to using creep, do I go for ewe & lamb mix or lamb pellets?

[feldar]

Lambs on mothers are fine don't cut your creep from them.
ewe's milk is natural and delivered in the natural way. As the lambs grow their demand on mum will be less and you will notice Mum will let them suck for a few seconds then she walks off so they never really over blow themselves. Bottle fed lambs are greedy we can never really reproduce a ewes teat so they tend to gorge themselves and this is where problems occurr. It doesn't always happen just in a few cases where the gut gets out of balance.
Sheep are by nature grasers so should take in little and often, even older sheep are subject to gut imbalance and acidosis.

[Haylo-peapod]

Brilliant - thanks for explaining that feldar. I shall continue with the creep feed - the boys and girls will be relieved... 

It possibly explains why I lost a 2-3 month old cade lamb in first year to what I put down to bloat.
It's heartbreaking to hear all the stories of so many orphan lambs not making it - the odds really do seem to be stacked against them.

[Bramblecot]

Feldar,  Thanks for that info. it makes a lot of sense to me.    I shall now press on with the hard feed and not top up with a bottle as I had intended.    Anyone use a new 10 kg bag of lamlac opened yesterday!

[fleurky]

Gosh thanks Feldar - that is very interesting indeed - when we did an autopsy on my beloved Jonti lamb who went down hill very suddenly - much like this one - we seemed to find a heart problem along with the distended tummy - some congealed blood around his heart.  Sounds very likely it was as you say.  Still don't know how we got to that point though, he had just moved onto tasting creep the day before - certainly hadn't had much, then the next morning he wasn't well.  By the following day, dead.

I wonder now if Jonti gorged himself on creep during the night (his first taste was the day before)  He didn't want a bottle in the morning (very suspicious now I look back), suddenly scoured then took a full one at 11 am.  He went down hill very quickly after that.

 I have learnt not to push it if they don't want a feed, even (or especially) the very poor weak ones.   

I sense my own limited knowledge has not helped greatly but hope I will get much better at the weaning lark as time goes on .  I get the feeling killing with kindness is a big issue with these little bleaters.  A tougher approach next year I hope will be much better for both them and myself!

Out of interest, is there anyway of rebalancing a gut issue - a probiotic or similar? Just wondered. 

Man, sheep are fascinating! Thanks all! Great site!

[feldar]

It is a learning curve but just be careful when you cut the milk out that your lambs are taking creep well, so maybe cut down a feed or two say during the day but still give a bottle last thing at night if your lambs are not taking enough.
A ewe will wean a youngster off milk gradually as she dries up, but we can't do that the same as they do, so its a fine balance of making sure they get the creep but not blowing their stomachs out with milk.
I just used to cut the milk and that was that. but it is hard when they bleat their heads off for milk you have to be quite strong with them.
Orphans are difficult, they may not have had colostrum or a very good start in life and there is the reason they are an orphan, Is mum no good etc etc so that is why it's not always recomended you breed from an Orphan but i'm sure there are plenty of people on this forum who have had very good lambs from orphans.
Good luck both of you

[fleurky]

So grateful for your advice, I've put wobbly Bambi lamb out with the more recent orphans in a small paddock with creep and cut down her feeds to half a bottle twice a day for now (she's 5 weeks old).  I'm hoping being a  bit hungry will encourage her, otherwise she's likely to just sleep till the next feed (she's had it far too easy) - does that sound like the right thing to do? 

Its a bit difficult to know how much any of the lambs are taking regarding creep -  I suppose I'm crossing everything that they will all instinctively move onto it. 

So todays question is this - will I know via the poo if the lambs are taking the creep?