[princesspiggy]

we are having the same problems as last year with our bagot kids.
last year our first nanny kid was born late evening and found it hard to get to her feet and suckle. i was up every few hours with her helping her find the teat and holding her up. the 2nd kid was similar but stronger, and after the first few days both were perfectly well and independent.
this year it is the same nannies but different sires.
today our nanny kidded outside twins at 1pm both a good size, un-complicated birth. it was warm (for here) and breezy. we brought them straight inside with the nanny and left them for half an hr. the mum is very attentive, licking and prompting to be suckled etc. the twins looked weak so i had given them a 10ml syringe each of "kick-start" molasses vitamin drench (for newborn lambs/calves). not much improvement so we moved them into a warmer shed with a heat lamp.
i milked the colostrum off the nanny and syringed at least 25 mls to each kid. they are still not standing, or strong with their necks and its now a good hour after birth so still not up on their feet. nanny is very cooperate and gentle.
the nanny kid hasnt got a sucking reflex so we are syringing with colostrum and a bit more kickstart and keeping her warm. after 6 hrs shes gives up and dies, never tried to suck or stand.
the remaining billy kid, is trying to stand and suck but needs to be literally held up to find the teat. he has colostrum by syringe then bottle, and held in place to suckle and his back legs are weak. i think he will be fine but il be up every 2 hrs to assist him thru tonight.
am i doing something wrong or missing something? cos i feel a native breed should be hardy enough to survive without so much human assistance. would stomach tubing be better and how do i learn how to do that?
any advice please as i still have a nanny to kid yet.

[katie]

My sympathies - sorry about the kid. I tend to agree that you would think a native breed would be more hardy. Being able to tube is useful - Tim Tyne's 'Sheep for Smallholder's book gives really good instructions but mine is in the caravan so I'll post tomorrow if no-one else has by then. Take care
Katie

[wytsend]

Sucking reflex in 99% of kids is triggered by being warm internally.

Did the female kids mouth feel coool/cold inside on her tongue..... if so this was most proabably the root cause of not sucking and the colostrum not goin g to the correct stomach.   Colostrum goes direct to the 4th stomach when sucked bypassing the others....... there is a valve mechanism that allows this for the first 6hrs of a kids life.  Trickling colostrum down the throat does not have the same initial effect of warming up a new baby.   With weak kids   ALWAYS stomach tube.... do  not wait.

I would be looking at your feeding regime prior to kidding to prevent these weak kids.   What do you feed.... Bagots are actually not as tough as we are lead to believe.... do you are minerals/supplement to their feed.?
i HAVE JUST ASSISTED WITH THE FORMULATION OF A GFOAT SPECIFIC Mix  which I think could be helpful to you.....  give me a call  on  01647 231456 (evenings)  so we can discuss this.    Weak  kids can be caused by a copper deficiency as well as many other things.

[princesspiggy]

feeding wise - all the goats are on ab-lib haylage, and get a scoop each of calf rearer nuts (harbros). plus red salt lick.
they are not greedy goats and slimmer rather than fatter.

she did get chilled as she gave birth outside in the breeze (they are in stable at night but wasnt expecting a lunchtime kidding) , but was moved to shed with a boiler,  14C and a heat lamp.

the billy kid survived the night, but i still have to hold him to the teat as he's still wobbly, but is weeing now so must be getting enough. but if i hadnt assisted him alot him, he wouldnt be here now.

this is only our 2nd kidding, we have lambed many times and only the problem wev had with lambing was rejection. they have always got to their feet.

i have tried the goats supplement you mentioned and will order some more. what do u stomach tube with? - fresh colostrum? or shop bought colostrum? - my friend buys it in sachets for his lambs but bottle feeds it .
thankyou

[princesspiggy]

the little fella is upon his feet now but im still having to assist him to suckle and as  he finds it tiring keeping his head up that high he loses his teat about 5 times per feed. it doesnt help that his mum is long coated  is this unusual in goats? hes 21 hrs old.
 

[wytsend]

Tke him off her... he will die otherwise.  He needs feeding almost hourly with very small amounts.

You should stomach tube with the dams own colostrum for preference  or some other goat colostrum .... goats do not do at all well on synthesised colostrum like lambs do.

How warm is his tongue... by now he should be normal temperature or higher.  Bring him in , put him by a heat source & ON A HOT WATER BOTTLE.... they need heat from top & bottom when they have been badly hypothermic.

THEY MUST HAVE COLOSTRUM WITHIN 6 HRS OF BIRTH  for it to be effective.

A normal strong kid will drink as much as 250ml of colostrum immediately after birth which really shows why tubing is necessary with weak ones.

[princesspiggy]

i have tubed him now, he is tiny, no bigger than a pymgy. he had 3oz of his dams milk and im planning to feed him 1-2 hourly til he improves, that is not too frequent for tube feeding? 3oz each time?
he can walk but hes sleepy. hes sleeping under the heat lamp so def warm.
advice greatly appreciated. xx

[little blue]

hope it works out :/

perhaps thats a contributing factor to them being rare?!
Have you used the same billy this year? Could be genetic factors, might be worth checking through the pedigrees abit in case of in-breeding...

Maybe the girls need a trim of their hair before kidding, to help the littl'uns out

Our girl always kids in the daytime (3:30, 1:15 and 12 noon)  ... I thought it was more likely for goats to kid in the day & pigs to farrow at night   

[princesspiggy]

perhaps thats a contributing factor to them being rare?!

thats my thinking too. i imagined them being wily and tough after being feral for 600 yrs.
we had exactly same issues last year, tho id only owned the mothers for 8 weeks beforehand.
different sires this year.

Our girl always kids in the daytime (3:30, 1:15 and 12 noon)  ... I thought it was more likely for goats to kid in the day & pigs to farrow at night   

i didnt realise that - my brain is trained for horses, last year one was 5.30 at night and the other was nightime, so i just presumed they would kid at night. we found them within 30 mins but it was quite breezy. id be feeling alot more guilty if id gone out alday but we were working 20 metres away.
i wish id had a stomach tube tho cos that would have probly saved the nany kid, or put her in a warm bath rather than waiting for a heat lamp to warm them. but it didnt seem such an emergency at the time. she died on my knee wrapped up in a blanket. bless her

[little blue]

bless her, that's just how it is sometimes :-/
  perhaps you should contact the owner of the billy, see if anyone else has had problems with weak kids?  you never know, it could be genetic....

Ours are Bagot crosses, if you remember we have a Bagot billy. The kids are strong, but very skittish, just like him.

best of luck for the little chap...

[princesspiggy]

just a query - the second time i tube fed him, the watery milk (id flushed the tube before and after with a touch of water) came back out of his stomach via the tube, is that normal, or a sign that i gave him too much, or too soon for the next feed?

also - whats the best emergency fluid/powder to keep in the store cupboard as harbros had so many i wasnt sure what to get today (iv 5 ewes and 1 nanny due yet). i had kick-start which didnt seem to help much.

thanks 

the billy is an unproven billy but his sire was very prolific. i dont think he is the problem. hes is just gorgeous too.

[Brucklay]

I wish I had some words of wisdom for you - but not something I have come across - just wanted you to know I've got my fingers crossed for the wee chap

[wytsend]

Basically you are going to have to play it by ear so to speak..... tubing after 6hrs is never as effective as doing it early.   You are going to hav e to evaluate the value of the kid and decide whether a call to the Vet is the next step to treat or quietly do the deed.
Sorry if this is bit blunt  but there is the correct time to make decisions.... do you feel that kid has enough strength to make it.... they are never quite the same if colostrum has been unavailable in the first 6hrs.

[princesspiggy]

this one def had colostrum with a syringe and swallowed it, his sister wouldnt suckle but 25ml or so went down her throat, but she died anyway. this chap suckled hungrily the first night but couldnt stand properly, so i had to hold him at the teat. he hasnt wanted to suckle today. i had a farmer come by and help and he got him to suckle a bit after 20 mins of trying - after that we have tubed him.
im off to check him shortly - dreading it ...

[princesspiggy]

hes pretty much the same today. hes hungry and tries to feed from his mum if i put him in the right place but he is too gentle and her milk isnt letting down into his mouth so he keeps giving up too quick. (she has plenty of milk tho and easy to milk)
hes also not sucking on the bottle as hes trying to suckle it rather than suck, so not swallowing any milk that either, a bit confusing for him.
we r still tube feeding him, he is pooing and weeing good. any tips?

You are going to hav e to evaluate the value of the kid

as usual, where goat kids are involved, my children fall head over heels for them. theyd happily hand raise him in the house. will ringing his balls put him back a bit? hes 2.5 days old already.