Author Topic: confused and cross! (Read 11894 times)

lachlanandmarcus · « **Reply #15 on:** December 03, 2011, 12:45:43 pm »

I had read that too but also that there was a (not how sure how official) derogation where a proper butcher is used and you are only selling locally (eg not via internet or mail order to ANother)? Not sure if this is a myth.

Otherwise its an easy and cheap way for the govt to stop small farmers/holders having stock, it's bad enough with the lack of abbatoirs let alone when theres no butchery available. Gives the market for meat lock stock and barrel to the supermarkets.

Our nearest abbatoir is 90 mins drive away and they recently doubled the butchery charge to £40 per sheep regardless of the size. At that cost for a sheep worth £30-40! it is not feasible, when slaughter and inspection and diesel costs are on top!

Kind of wishing someone would set up a mobile cutting plant but not sure how that would work with the inspection part.

<sighs deeply>

Sylvia · « **Reply #16 on:** December 03, 2011, 02:14:25 pm »

Blimey! Thats a bit steep. I cut up my own sheep. I have a nephew who is a Master butcher and he showed me how, but maybe your local butcher will show you.

princesspiggy · « **Reply #17 on:** December 03, 2011, 02:35:05 pm »

i cut my own pigs too if its just for us, but to sell on i use a butcher. each butcher i use have their own shop on site so surely they are passing all standards? the carcuss is delivered straight from abattoir.

slight twist to the tale now - the first butcher kept to his price. the second butcher who was charging TWICE the price anyway, then charged an extra 25% on top ...hhmmm....how much do u pay for a smile???
the first butcher said he will cut for me again as long as i dont mention the selling part?? so still confused!
both butchers are excellent in what they do, but it was nice getting the loins cured which only the 2nd would do.

HappyHippy · « **Reply #18 on:** December 03, 2011, 03:55:28 pm »

The butcher I use does charge twice the pork butchery charge for anything that's getting cured. 80p per kilo for pork, £1.60 a kilo for cured.
So if it was a 50Kg carcass and I was having half of it cured, I'd effectively be paying for 75Kg worth of pork charges - hope that makes sense lol!
Maybe that's what the second butcher has done ? Or maybe he just thinks he can get away with it $:-\$
I've never had anyone quote a price then come back to me with an extra bit added - what was the extra 25% for ? If he's not already given you one, ask for a breakdown of costs (or invoice for your records) Sometimes, when you're a girl they adopt a kinda mechanic attitude (lots of teeth sucking and 'don't worry yourself pet' looks) you've got to be a bit assertive (verging on being a pain, but with lots of apologies

) til they realise you're not 'playing' at keeping pigs - it's serious, it's your business and you need someone who'll behave as proffessionally and with the same level of care & high standards you do.

The butcher who'll cut for you, as long as you don't mention selling is confusing me ? Are you registered with environmental health for selling your pork ? Maybe he's worried that if you're not he'll get into trouble - it's very bizzarre

I think I'd be doing a bit more digging before sending any more to him

The only advice I could offer would be to talk to local folk who keep pigs and find out who does theirs. Also talk to Cheralynne Pieters at Quarryhead Fine Meats (Mintlaw area) - I'm sure she's put in an approved cutting room and would either do it for you or maybe let you use the space ? Her details are on SPKA site

Keep going til you get a butcher who'll do the job, at a fair price and without all this mucking about - you've really got to have a good working relationship with them

Karen

oaklandspigs · « **Reply #19 on:** December 03, 2011, 04:44:02 pm »

The enforcement of this rule for small private sales is very light, and typically needs significant transgression before TS get interested (but of course there is always the exception!).

It is a particularly puzzling rule when you first come across it.

Abattoir -> Butcher -> public = legal
Abattoir -> Cutting plant -> you -> public = legal
Abattoir -> Butcher -> you -> public = illegal

So where is the risk in the last one that isn't present in the first two? ie if butcher is ok, and you're ok, where does butcher to you ADD any further risk.
Clearly not the butcher, as he's allowed to sell direct to the public, so if his processes were risky, adding you into the chain does not make it worse or better, he is already selling to the public. Clearly you are not the risk in itself, as a cutting plant can give you the meat to sell to the public.

The answer lies in volume. The State does not want qualified butchers creating large "chop shops" without the state ensuring that they are cutting without risk. The argument is the larger the operation, the more supervision is needed across the whole plant, and the more the state should be there to oversee it. If for instance you had 10 butchers of the same size in 10 different shops and one had poor processes, only a tenth of the public buying from them would be ill. If you had one large butchery of 10 butchers, the poor processes of one would infect all, and all their customers would be affected. You may or may not agree or like the state interfering thus, but that is how it is.

Allowing butchers to cut for people to sell on (ie become wholesalers) allows them to get bigger quicker, hence the reason for the rule.

The "derogation" quoted by lachlanandmarcus doesn't exist, but many TS take a view that whilst selling "privately" to family and friends does constitute a "placing on the market" it does not constitute a "public" sale - a public sale being considered as one where you may not know each buyer eg one where you turn up at a market stall, have a sign on your gate, or advertise.

Simply moving meat from you to granny is not something that many TS's consider as needing their heavy hands, but if they have had a bad day or argument with 'er indoors, they can still be a pain, hence why PP's butcher is saying that him cutting for you as customer is perfectly legal, what you do with it afterwards is your affair and he doesn't want to know.

However if you're advertising, or going to farmers markets, the cutting plant route is a better option to stay well within the law.

princesspiggy · « **Reply #20 on:** December 03, 2011, 08:14:31 pm »

so whats the difference between a cutting plant and a butcher? is the cutting plant attached to the abattoir?
appreciate advise here...

oaklandspigs · « **Reply #21 on:** December 04, 2011, 08:45:03 am »

Whilst cutiing plants can exist standalone, the ones smallholedrs/farmers are likely to come accross will be attached to abattoirs.

But that does not mean if it is attached to an abattoir it is automatically a cutting plant.

The difference will be whether an inspector from the Meat Hygiene Service is present when the meat is cut. If so it is a cutting plant, if not it is a butchers.

princesspiggy · « **Reply #22 on:** December 04, 2011, 09:37:51 am »

thanx oaklands, i understand now.
who on here is using a cutting plant instead of a butcher then?
thanx 4 everyones advice

Sylvia · « **Reply #23 on:** December 04, 2011, 01:29:05 pm »

Our local abbatoir has a cutting plant and will butcher and pack to your requirements. I suppose that's safe enough to sell to folk? $:-\$

princesspiggy · « **Reply #24 on:** December 04, 2011, 01:37:28 pm »

our abattoir has a cutting plant (iv bin researching - lol) but i never realised and no-one told me. i dont know if they do it privately, will have to find out....

princesspiggy · « **Reply #25 on:** December 11, 2011, 07:24:01 pm »

Quote from: princesspiggy on December 03, 2011, 02:35:05 pm

the first butcher kept to his price. the second butcher who was charging TWICE the price anyway, then charged an extra 25% on top

my mistake, it was a delivery charge.

we tasted the bacon today it was sssoooo gud. dry cured and sweet and salty. last time (a few years back) a different butcher made our bacon and it was yuk and brown. this butcher made it perfect.
next time i will try it myself tho... getting braver each year ..lol

Bionic · « **Reply #26 on:** December 11, 2011, 07:36:43 pm »

mmm, that bacon is making my mouth water
Sally

Barrett · « **Reply #27 on:** December 12, 2011, 12:32:48 pm »

All these rules and regs that everybody has to try and remember I my self are worried now, I thought that if you don't handle the meat yourself you were ok $:-\$

oaklandspigs · « **Reply #28 on:** December 12, 2011, 05:29:35 pm »

Quote from: Barrett on December 12, 2011, 12:32:48 pm

All these rules and regs that everybody has to try and remember I my self are worried now, I thought that if you don't handle the meat yourself you were ok $:-\$

The rules are not greatly applied, and if people are collecting from your butcher or he is delivering you could get into lots of great semantics as to whether you were the one selling the meat with your butcher merely the delivery boy, or whether you were a "butchers agent" getting him orders, taking money and keeping an amount for yourself. This is why TS are generally loathe to get into this area, which does nothing for public health in any case, and they have much better things to do.

The "don't handle the meat" bit is more about food hygiene and the regs around that, these would apply whether you use a butcher or cutting plant. Again we get into "private sales" vs. "public sales", the former being private provision to family and friends, the latter where you have signs up and start to sell at the gate or at markets, when you would need to show food hygiene certificates, and may need chilled vans, commercial grade storage, with thermometers and recorded charts etc. etc.

However don't start panicing - unless you are "commercial" and providing you are taking sensible procautions (eg not leaving meat in back window of car on hot day) it is highly unlikely that you would come to the attention of the authorities, and even less likely that they would take any action.

PS Can you imagine a french farmer being approached by Trading Standards