[bazzais]

What a balanced argument in this thread. I am straddled on the 'wall(s)' as always.



The bottom line is, people should know there own animals and make safe any dangerous situations (unless its a first time occurrence).

I only have little dachshunds at the mo,  but they are both aggressive over food, the boy more - he has drawn my blood a few times (I shouldn't tease him really, but we is both boys lol).  So I give him grub when he is away from any public and tell people not to play with his grub or bone. But what would happen if someone fed him food on our campsite?


Bring back dog licenses - and for certain breeds, check the owners.

When you put into perspective how many sheep you would have to sell to match the profit from a pedigree 'dangerous' dog litter. Then look at the legislation and checks between the two?  (I know one is destined for the food chain and one isn't but, I dont think you should be able to still in this day 'buy a dog as a christmas present'- , more control is needed)

[doganjo]

[Sylvia, that's the point - you know you have killing machines so you take great care about when and where they are loose.  This owner clearly doesn't and hasn't.

Yup, as full details have came out it would seem that (yet again  ) it's not a bad dog, but an iresponsible owner 

Sally - I don't doubt you on the breeds but this first picture is what I imagine when I hear pit bull terrier (the boxer of the dog world  ) instead of staffordshire bull terrier (the bottom one)

Karen 

The first one looks very much like some of the ENGLISH bull terriers I have judged!(Sorry, Rosemary, didn't read your post first - that's exactly what it is.  I have attached a photo of a pit bull, and you can see the resemblance to teh Staffie) 
Like Robert I wouldn't want to tango with any of them!  And I am extremely careful when judging.
However, we are not discussing individual breeds here, we are discussing one incident in one dog and one owner's lives.  It appears the owner has allowed the dog to roam on numerous occasions, and it has gone for other dogs - I'm not convinced the story of one of them having had to be euthanased is correct though.  My opinion is that the dog should be removed from that owner and she should be banned from keeping dogs for a prescribed length of time and taught how to look after and have the responsibilities of dog owning, and that the dog should be sent for retraining and rehoming - there are a number of charities who would take this on.

[SallyintNorth]

Hi Karen    The top picture is the Bull Terrier - it used not to need any further description, but I suspect now we have to call it the English Bull Terrier - Bill Sykes had one called Bulls Eye in Oliver Twist.

Kennel Club breed description and picture gallery:
http://www.the-kennel-club.org.uk/services/public/breed/display.aspx?id=3063
http://www.the-kennel-club.org.uk/services/public/picturelibrary/breed.aspx?id=3063

Oh, just caught up the rest of the thread - thanks for the pics, Annie, saved me the trouble of finding any more. 

I don't know how long you've been judging them, Annie - but the Staffies that were about when I were a gal were a lot less like the Pit Bull than the breed has now become.  To my eyes, this evolution has occurred since the early 1990s (ie, the Dangerous Dogs' Act) and is a result of it being made illegal to own an un-neutered [American] Pit Bull Terrier.

They used to be shorter in the leg, shorter in the nose, slightly less broad from cheek to cheek, ears slightly less upright and square-on; nearly always brindle or black; white only on the brisket, a little on the paws allowed, frowned upon in the midline of the face and I think disallowed elsewhere - certainly not whole body white whether or not with coloured patches; I've got a feeling tan was not allowed, it certainly wasn't usual.  Am I right in remembering a Miniature and a Standard Staffie?  I'm going back to the mid-Sixties/early Seventies, when I learned my dog breeds.

To me, this is more the type I learned:
http://www.the-kennel-club.org.uk/services/public/picturelibrary/display.aspx?id=f4651418-f546-4b16-8cf7-9e1b87150bfa
http://www.the-kennel-club.org.uk/services/public/picturelibrary/display.aspx?id=5967da59-e7b8-452b-a57d-56627af40c2c
rather than:
http://www.the-kennel-club.org.uk/services/public/picturelibrary/display.aspx?id=89230f9c-d299-41d9-ab03-90a1ab1493d2  (although the colouring on this one is more 'old-fashioned')

I do have all the 'Observers' Books from the period, but they're in a box somewhere... 

[doganjo]

Hi Sally, do you remember a weekly or monthly publication that could be bound into volumes called Hutchison's Encyclopaedia of Dogs?  I have that - it was given to my late husband by a work colleague away back in the 70s after his wife died.  Obviously the plates in it will be of the old style of all breeds.  Because it's bound I don't think I can scan them though.  Will have a look.

I've been judging Gundogs a long time but not terriers.

[SallyintNorth]

Hi Sally, do you remember a weekly or monthly publication that could be bound into volumes called Hutchison's Encyclopaedia of Dogs? 

Noooooo... it must've been Scottish only, or I'd have had it!      I would be interested in what the Staffie plate and desc look like and say, if you do have a look.

[doganjo]

I'm sorry, Sally but I've looked right through all 7 volumes and there is no Staffordshire bull Terrier listed.  It is all in alpha order but the plates seem to have been bound at various random places so I had to look through them all.  I wonder if it was called something else in the 1920 to30s?

[cuckoo]

In my opinion SBT's have diverged into 2 distinct groups these days - the KC std registered one which is smaller, squarer etc and a longer legged version such as the one I think which is pictured originally which I hear many people refer to as "Irish Staffies".

The DDA refers to "pitbull types" I believe.  The problem is in the identification - and how "experts" identify the dogs.

The DDA needs amending to take account of deed not breed and emphasis putting onto responsible dog ownership.  There are far too may dogs needing new homes, including in my experience a very large proportion of which are SBTs or their crosses.  In my opinion it would be irresponsible to rehome a dog with history of serious aggression to people - especially as there are just far too many ones available which are lovely.  Whilst I dont have a staffie myself I know a number of people who do and they are loving family pets.  However, even the best family dog of whatever breed can attack and kill a cat - owners are responsible for that ultimately.

[Rosemary]

When man started to domesticate the wolf, he identified certain behaviours and developed them for his own purposes. The only group of dogs developed to kill are terriers. Terriers are bred to kill "for fun" - even the wolf doesn't do that, he kills to eat.

When you then cross the "kill" instinct with a dog that is jaws on legs, then you're asking for trouble.

[grumpsgarden]

im amazed the dog has to be put down , as when a neiughbours dog jumbed into our garden and killed our cat with them stood there watching nothing was done we was told as it was just a cat if it had been our dog/child or livestock that was diffrent so maybe there was something else to make the judge rule this way on this case, i also go with its never the dogs fault but the owners

[robert waddell]

my observation from working in the rough housing schemes in Glasgow paisley and Edinburgh the rougher the area the bigger the dog  the druggie or money lender would get laughed down the road if he went prancing about with a Yorkie or poodle  toryglen they were openly training there pit bull type dogs in the swing area
there was a programme on the TV about south end on sea every dog was a pit bull type cheap pups or a lot of enforcing needed

[Stevie D]

When man started to domesticate the wolf, he identified certain behaviours and developed them for his own purposes. The only group of dogs developed to kill are terriers. Terriers are bred to kill "for fun" - even the wolf doesn't do that, he kills to eat.

When you then cross the "kill" instinct with a dog that is jaws on legs, then you're asking for trouble.

Gonna differ with you there Rosemary, running dogs were bred both to chase and kill. Most hound breeds were/are bred to hunt and kill. Some terriers were bred to kill small game but others to chase game from below ground. None of these animals were bred to kill each other however. Pit Bulls were only ever bred for fighting.