Author Topic: The corrupt E U  (Read 28024 times)

SallyintNorth

  • Joined Feb 2011
  • Cornwall
  • Rarely short of an opinion but I mean well
    • Trelay Cohousing Community
Re: The corrupt E U
« Reply #60 on: November 14, 2011, 11:43:13 pm »
Milliband Minor

 ;D ;D ;D  I shall never call him anything else, now.   ;D ;D ;D
Don't listen to the money men - they know the price of everything and the value of nothing

Live in a cohousing community with small farm for our own use.  Dairy cows (rearing their own calves for beef), pigs, sheep for meat and fleece, ducks and hens for eggs, veg and fruit growing

waterhouse

  • Guest
Re: The corrupt E U
« Reply #61 on: November 14, 2011, 11:44:54 pm »
We're scared.  Those that aren't scared are about to be.

I've lived through lots of crashes since I started work in 1972 in the UK and many other places.  But this one is so big and so deep and so tall there ain't no way to fix it, just no way at all as Dr Seuss might have said. 

The crap came down in Jan 2007 with HSBC taking the first subprime bath and I worked out the message that summer though Northern Rock and Lehmans weren't until late 2008.   The european banking system is more constipated now than it was after Lehman collapsed.  This crash is still crashing over here, and we haven't hit bottom yet.  In 2007 what I expected to  happen wasn't as bad as this is getting, while governments the world over are just as inept. 

How does it feel over there?




waterhouse

  • Guest
Re: The corrupt EU
« Reply #62 on: November 15, 2011, 12:03:48 am »
My friend John Rathbone wrote this today, and he's a smart bugger


Weekly Bulletin – 14th November 2011

Last week was a satisfying one for those conspiracy theorists who continue to believe (with increasing justification) that the designers of the euro, led by Jacques Delors, knew all along that, without full political union, the single currency would at some stage enter a crisis of such terrifying proportions that nations would be prepared to sacrifice their sovereignty to sort out the mess and, in the process, move to full political union. This script is being played out perfectly as first Greece, then Italy have had to accept the removal of their governments, which, though both deeply flawed, were at least democratically elected. Messrs Lucas Papademos and Mario Monti, respectively the new Greek and Italian leaders, are perfect for the federalist cause. Monti is a committed European federalist, who has served as a European Commissioner (though he is not currently an MP). Indeed, it appears that his emergency government will not contain a single elected member. Meanwhile former ECB deputy president, Papademos, who has never even been an MP, has already declared that his top priority will be to keep Greece in the eurozone. Does he literally mean that he would put eurozone membership above all else: healthcare, pensions, defence, for example? His baptism into Greek politics looks set to be fiery indeed.

Last week was when events finally caught up with Italy. European leaders – particularly the notoriously anti-market Angela Merkel – are fond of stating that they refuse to be dictated to by the markets but last week, the ‘Frankfurt Group’ used the markets to devastating effect against Silvio Berlusconi. As the bond markets cast their judgment, selling off Italian government debt so vigorously that, on Wednesday, with LCH Clearnet having raised margin requirements, the 10 year yield hit a euro-era high of 7.45%, the ECB could have intervened to help out Italy but apparently saw an opportunity to depose the country’s errant prime minister instead. At the time, much was made of the fact that neither Ireland, Greece or Portugal had survived without a bailout after yields had gone above the 7% level and the markets held their breath. However, let down by ‘eight traitors’ Silvio Berlusconi was forced to fall on his sword and, by Thursday, 10 year yields were back down below 7%. (At the time of writing, they are over 100 basis points below the peak and this morning’s 5 year auction raised EUR 3 billion at 6.29%). The Italian Senate approved the austerity measures demanded by the EU, followed by the lower house on Saturday and Monti’s national unity government is expected to be in place by Wednesday with a goal of balancing the budget by 2014.

Thus in Italy, as in Greece, the electorate have been denied a vote on the euro and find themselves governed by unelected technocrats. We have always said that, within a democracy, it would be unimaginable for any Club Med country to regain the competitiveness lost in the euro-era. Any government attempting to push through the required draconian expenditure cuts and tax rises would find itself facing civil unrest or worse in the short term, and in the medium term would be voted out. It is not at all clear how the situation will change now that the elected leaders of Italy and Greece have been conveniently removed. It is just possible that the people of both countries are so tired of years of corruption and incompetence that they will regard the caretaker governments as preferable to what would have been. However, even if this view does, indeed, dominate, it seems extremely unlikely that it will continue to do so once the technocrats start to show their teeth through their austerity packages. With Italian industrial output down 2.7% in the year to September and even German output down an identical 2.7% month on month in September (largely due to  falling demand in the eurozone), it seems that the official view that the eurozone faces a ‘mild recession’ will prove to be an understatement.

With the eurozone in so parlous a state, it was something of a surprise to note that the European Commission estimates next year’s growth rate to be 0.5%, compared with a barely better 0.6% for the UK. With the UK’s austerity programme already in place, the banks substantially recapitalized and the Coalition government representing 60% of voters at the last election (a fact that contributes to London’s status as a safe haven and continues to drive the super-prime residential property market), it would be a shock were the UK not to outperform the eurozone by more than 0.1% in 2012.

This morning we learnt that eurozone industrial production declined 2% between August and September – the most in 2 ½ years. In the UK, this week will see the Bank of England’s Quarterly Inflation Report (Wednesday) which is expected to reinforce the Bank’s view that inflation will fall quite spectacularly next year. Hopefully from the Bank’s perspective, this view will already have gained some more credibility after tomorrow’s release of October inflation data, which is expected to show CPI falling from 5.2% to 5.1% and RPI falling to 5.5% from last month’s 20 year high of 5.6%. Core CPI is also expected to fall to 3.2% from last month’s worryingly high 3.3%. Less palatable for George Osborne will be the Bank’s expected revisions to its growth forecasts – expected 1% for this year, down from 1.5% only three months ago – and 1% for 2012, down from 2% in August. Unemployment data on Wednesday are expected to show the ILO rate increase from 8.1% to 8.2%.  Average earnings data, also on Wednesday, are expected to show a fall from 2.8% to 2.5%. While this would please Mervyn King, some forecasters are predicting a fall to as low as 2.2%, which would have negative implications for consumer sentiment. Thursday’s retail sales data are expected to show a 0.5% fall year on year. If this string of UK data comes in broadly as expected, it will be difficult to escape the conclusion that the government’s plan to remove the structural deficit by 2015 will involve considerably more pain than hitherto expected.
JCD Rathbone

RUSTYME

  • Joined Oct 2009
The corrupt eu
« Reply #63 on: November 15, 2011, 11:58:11 am »
Mr rathbone used a few more words than i did , but it adds up to the same thing basically , 'they' are making their move , so hang on to your hats , shite is about to hit the fan , big time !
You ain't seen nothing yet !

ShaunP

  • Joined Dec 2009
    • Timber Chalets and Lodges
Re: The corrupt E U
« Reply #64 on: November 16, 2011, 08:48:01 pm »
The whole euro situation is a like a slow motion car crash. There was a daily Mail reporter on question time last week who really hit the nail on the head........the sooner they start working out how to let countries out of it the better!!!

The situation in our Government is slightly different from that of Greece and Italy. Our PM is effectively an MP that leads the party with the majority. If Cameron stood down tomorrow it would not be possible for Thatcher to be brought back in as she is not a currrent MP. Italy and Greece have a history of these technocratic leaders in times when politicians cannot act beyond party political lines. Look at the USA, the president is head of the goverment. But without controlling congress and the senate he is paralysed.

What the next days, weeks and months bring..........is anyones guess. But in real life you can not borrow your way out of debt. The sooner every government starts to understand that the rebuilding and recover can start. Until then, the bottom has not been reached!!!

waterhouse

  • Guest
Re: The corrupt E U
« Reply #65 on: November 17, 2011, 08:30:03 pm »
The sorry answer is to devalue your currency so that the debts you incurred are repaid in less valuable money.  Mrs Merkel needs to roll the printing presses except she can't because of the hyperinflation that arose in the days of the Weimar Republic.  It's also tricky to see who you depreciate against when the Yanks have to play the same game.

There's no ejection seat in the Euro.  Any suggestion of an imminent departure would lead to a mass exodus of money from the country concerned, though a lot of that has already happened in Greece.   The new Drachma would be a pariah currency - who'd want to hold it - so there would be a truly nasty period when hospitals couldn't buy supplies etc.  There are no elegant solutions, just ugly ones here.

If you think your money may be worth less next week your'e going to switch it into someone else's money or into assets with which to barter.  And means of protecting your barter assets.  When you look into this abyss you start looking for other solutions, unappealing as they may previously have seemed.

deepinthewoods

  • Guest
Re: The corrupt E U
« Reply #66 on: November 17, 2011, 09:07:09 pm »
i seem to remember that the the euro launched at a rate of 43p, now its 87p, is that the pound devaluing or the othr way round? either way it would have been a good investment.

waterhouse

  • Guest
Re: The corrupt E U
« Reply #67 on: November 17, 2011, 10:27:46 pm »
from the horses mouth http://www.ecb.int/stats/exchange/eurofxref/html/eurofxref-graph-gbp.en.html

lowest 57p, highest 98p and average 72p.  I'd have guessed 68p because when I worked in Europe it mostly was.  You try getting any of those rates off rot-in-hell-Travelex

deepinthewoods

  • Guest
Re: The corrupt E U
« Reply #68 on: November 19, 2011, 06:59:45 pm »
good link thanks.

so am i right in thinking the 'euro' has been a good ten year investment? im not good with economics!

waterhouse

  • Guest
Re: The corrupt E U
« Reply #69 on: November 19, 2011, 10:54:28 pm »
Not really.

If you bought some Euro for 62p at launch and sold them for 86p now then the capital return would be a bit over 3% pa but my recollection is that Euro interest rates have been lower on average for that period than sterling rates so the running interest return would be less by holding Euro v Sterling.

I could work it out accurately but suspect that most of the answer is above.

With investments timing is everything, so if you bought at 66p in early 2007 and sold 2 years later at 97p you'd be looking at a capital return of 22%pa.  But the sucker you sold them to would be nursing a big loss.



Mel Rice

  • Joined Sep 2011
Re: The corrupt E U
« Reply #70 on: November 21, 2011, 04:30:09 pm »
My OH blames these 'ratings agencys'...if they say your doomed then down you go! The US has far more debt than Europe but as yet there is no run on the dollar

mmu

  • Joined Aug 2011
  • Aberdeenshire
Re: The corrupt E U
« Reply #71 on: November 21, 2011, 11:00:03 pm »
I think it's about time we went back to the barter system, and definitely do away with any one dealing in money as a 'thing'  Money is a currency for buying things with, it was never meant to be a thing you buy.  Sorry for the use of thing, brain's going to sleep!
We keep Ryelands, Southdowns, Oxford Downs, Herdwicks, Soay, Lleyn, an Exmoor pony and Shetland geese.  Find us on Twitter as @RareBreedsScot

waterhouse

  • Guest
Re: The corrupt E U
« Reply #72 on: November 22, 2011, 12:58:14 am »
My OH blames these 'ratings agencys'...if they say your doomed then down you go! The US has far more debt than Europe but as yet there is no run on the dollar

There's no place to run to except gold, so it's real pricey now.  Where else do the Chinese or the Gulf oil producers put their dollars?

waterhouse

  • Guest
Re: The corrupt E U
« Reply #73 on: November 22, 2011, 01:03:31 am »
My OH blames these 'ratings agencys'...if they say your doomed then down you go! The US has far more debt than Europe but as yet there is no run on the dollar

I think the agencies have been really incompetent, stupid, venal and alternately indolent and trigger-happy. But that doesn't always make them wrong.  The euro-Pillocks currently wanting to "regulate" them actually want to silence them from spreading embarrassing truths.

deepinthewoods

  • Guest
Re: The corrupt E U
« Reply #74 on: December 02, 2011, 08:17:35 pm »

 

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