[Penninehillbilly]

Hi
hoping someone can advise me here.
I've almost always had dogs around, current dog is a neutered collie x (rescue) His 'partner in crime' had to go, thru ill health last year.

We have just taken on a border collie bitch, apparently 5 yr old.
she's been shunted round for a couple of months, after being given away following a marriage break up.
apparently been kept loose in a yard.

We only got her last night, but first impressions are - not house trained (messed last night, even after a long walk down lane), doesn't really even 'sit', VERY submissive, (when I say 'sit' don't know whether she almost obeying or just asking for petting, obviously doesn't 'stay' or anything else. she does seem to answer to her name, or maybe it's just the encouragement in my voice. when I took her for a walk she was so busy trying to be friends I could hardly walk for falling over her.
I did say 'NO' rather sharply this morning to stop her climbing up on some clutter in the porch, - result was a puddle and poor girl crawling on floor.
She's living in the conservatory for now, original boy is pretending she doesn't exist so I'll let him know he's still number one for a few days (he has confidence problems as well )
To top it all she's arrived well 'in season', (I've been assured she hasn't been got at), so whether that could affect her so much I'm not sure.
Can you teach a 5yr old to be house trained? she 'could' live out in the kennel in the future (when she's spayed) but I need to build that confidence up and do a some training. She would be in the house in bad weather, so I really need to get that house training sorted.
She seems to want to please (or just daft) so I'm sure we can teach her basic commands if we can get over this fawning and (asking for reassurance?)
I know all this may seem like early days, and I've had enough dogs to know she must be very confused, but I have a feeling these problems aren't just because it's all new to her, maybe this is why she's been shunted round so much.
I really want to give her a permanent home, but OH isn't too impressed yet, so I need to get things together ASAP

[Fleecewife]

How kind of you to give her a home.  She sounds so scared and as you say will be very confused with all the moves and different people with different expectations for her.

I can't offer any advice about training her, although I would expect that with patience and time you can house train her in spite of her age.  When we had a slight problem with a new puppy it was Corrie Dhu on here who sorted it out really well - she is a wonder with dogs 

[faith0504]

She might have some long term issues going on, but alot of it might just be, she is scared and insecure, new surroundings, her head is all in a wizz, she doesnt know whats going on, i would give her lots of tlc, plus some of her own quiet time, so she can chill out, and get her head round stuff, at night put her somewhere so any mess is in a limited area, and put some newspaper down so maybe she might use that,

It might just might be nerves,

Fingers crossed for you and good luck, she is very lucky 

[jaykay]

Yes you can house-train her at 5 yrs old and yes you can get over this over-submissive behaviour  It will take patience!

Essentially you need to be less dominant around her initially (not suggesting you were overdoing it, just to explain what you're trying to achieve). Sit down on the floor with her, let her climb on you, if you can put up with it let her lick your face. Try to keep a routine and be as slow, quiet and calm around her as you can manage.

House-training. Take her out when she's most likely to want to 'go' ie after being fed, first thing etc. To the same place each time, lots of fuss for getting it right, ignore it if she gets it wrong to begin with at least (regard it as feedback that she needs letting out more).

She's a lucky girl 

[colliewoman]

i can give more detailed advise tomorrow, but personally i think the very best thing you could do is to contact border collie trust of great britain (bctgb). not to rehome her but they really are wonderful at giving advise especially with rescue bc's. they could give you more help in one email/phone call than i could give you in days on here.
however, for now, she will cling to you like glue for a while, watch she doesnt snap in defence at your other dog.
if she piddles through fear/submission ignore her and quietly clean up (otherwise you just reinforce submissive piddling!) i would have her on a lead at all times when possible, and when not possible pop her in an indoor kennel. just temporary but that way she cant get into any mischief, so wont need the correction that she cant handle at the moment, also it will help amazingly with the house training. she will soon come around and be emotionally strong enough to take a correction without thinking her world is crashing down 

good luck and well done you

[Penninehillbilly]

Thanks for the advice, by indoor kennel do you mean a dog cage? I did wonder about popping her in one, but thought if she did mess she'd stand/ sit in it.
when she did have a little accident I did just clean up when she was through the door, no point in upsetting her more.
We brought her in the kitchen tonight, but she kept pushing the other dog away when he came for a pat, not nasty, just got between us saying ME ME ME wriggling and wagging tail like mad. Unfortunatley it was a bit to much all the time when we were trying to get a meal, so she was back in the conservatory (bed, food + water out there).
The conservatory is full of al sorts of clutter, unfortunatly she's been jumping up and chewing things (bang goes a rather expensive LED torch  , I'll have to tell him I dropped it. hope its just being insecure and she gets thru that stage quickly!
She doesn't seem to know what a walk is for, tonight I walked her without a lead and she literally walked next to me, watching me all the time, I tried to stand by some grass but she just sat and looked at me. (it is a private lane, so quite safe) so I suppose there will be something to clean up in the morning
Today I was walking passed her and naturally put my hand down to pat her, as I would with other boy, she sort of winced and swung her head away, quite upsetting.
I'v also changed my mind about her coming to her name-she doesn't, but I suppose (hope) that's the easiest thing to remedy 
Ah well, early days, another day tomorrow, we'll see what that brings, 'night all.

[Tilly]

Hi Penninehillybilly 
.... I think a dog cage is a good idea - she will soon learn it to be a nice place if you feed her in it and it will give you and the other dog a break from her- which will benefit her by giving her the change to relax in her own space too.
--this sort of dog will take much patience on your behalf, but if you can get her  life into some sort of routine I am sure she will start to settle in her new environment.
 Good luck 
Tilly

[Rosemary]

I think you're doing a great thing taking this dog on. I'm sure with lots of care and patience, she'll turn out fine. Poor pup, sounds like she's had a bit of a bad time. Good times coming now - she just hasn't realised it yet 

[Penninehillbilly]

She's a bit calmer tonight, she's been outside all day, unfortunately on a chain, I would have put a few feet of light webbing between her and the chain, but I think she would chew thru it, too risky yet.
someone called round with a couple of dogs, I was distracted while unloading some goods, next thing there was a ruckus and she'd snapped at a dog, after they'd gone she snapped at Jim, my other dog, I hope it was just because she was still upset from the first one and not a sign of things to come.
Got a voucher from the local council for getting her spayed, that will be a relief!
On a walk she did run a few yards after Jim, and kept coming back to me, so that's good, it was nice to see her relax for a few seconds anyway, and she did her business up the lane, even better, so she received much praise .
I'll try and talk her into the cage tonight, this morning the conservatory looked like a bomb had gone off! She did go in the outside kennel when there was a cold wind, but seemed to prefer laying on the flags watching everything .
Thanks for the advice and support, glad your'e there

[Rosemary]

Another similar thread started related to a nervous Lab   

[colliewoman]

dont worry about the snapping too much, as i predicted, nervy collies especially bitches will defend their new source of love and care but can get too carried away! if possible avoid situations where she can do it, ie with the indoor kennel (yup dog crate, best invention in the world ever! you can put sheep in them in your sisters posh car to get to the vets too )
have a look online at the N.I.L.I.F theory, nothing in life is free. this works wonders for nervy dogs and pushy dominant dogs alike. the dog must earn EVERYTHING, food, walks, cuddles etc. you can give a million cuddles a day if you wish, but simply ask them to sit or lie down (or do anything you like) first.
good luck!

[Penninehillbilly]

just to give a quick update, we've had 2 'clean' nights, (hope I'm not speaking too soon)
I did try the crate, she messed in it then of course got it over herself, went for the newspaper by the door routine.
She's still very nervous, because she sits/stands in front as you try to walk past, I have to do a balancing act to get round her, lost my balance a bit one day, toppled a little with my arm outstretched, poor girl was sitting, reared up and fell over backwards in a panic, another time OH picked the poker up to stir the Rayburn and she hit the kitchen unit, trying to get to the far corner too fast, yesterday i took the sweeping brush to sweep the conservatory while she was in there, she ran off thru the open house door. I think that tells me what she's come from.
She seems to have settled to a routine, she actually seems very intelligent, I can't understand why anyone would 'waste' such a lovely dog.
learnt to 'sit' (most of the time),
Answers to her name, (unless I'm trying to get her out of the kitchen, come out but runs back in before I can shut the door  ) (maybe TOO intelligent at times )
learnt to bring toy back, (forgot the next day, but we'll get there, good exercise+bonding, ).

But help please
She chews plastic things (ie. unfortunatly left milk measuring jug out ), any ideas how I can dissuade her, we've bought her rawhide and a plastic chewy bones for her teeth, but if I give her these when she's been chewing, wouldn't that be like rewarding her for chewing?
What's the best way of teaching to 'stay' when she just wants to be with me, but not always practical when I'm busy with something, other dogs have seemed simple by comparison, I don't want to ask too much of her yet, but it's only basics.

Looked at the NILIF theory, interesting, it's very much as I treat my dogs anyway, I suppose I have been giving Moll more hugs, and Jim to let him know he's not ignored. But it was difficult to just ignore Moll when she was climbing onto the settee with me, or trying to climb in behind me, (no dogs on furniture in this house), she was told firmly 'NO' and pushed off untill she stayed off, she hasn't tried it since. She gets praise and hugs when she gets something right, disappointment in my voice when mistakes (IE indoor messies), she knows.

[SallyintNorth]

But help please
She chews plastic things (ie. unfortunatly left milk measuring jug out ), any ideas how I can dissuade her, we've bought her rawhide and a plastic chewy bones for her teeth, but if I give her these when she's been chewing, wouldn't that be like rewarding her for chewing?

No it wouldn't.  You are wanting to stop her developing a bad habit, is all.  Always have something you are happy for her to chew within reach.  If she starts to chew something she shouldn't, simply insert the chew-toy in her mouth and praise her.  If she drops it and starts on the treasured possession again, simply repeat.  The idea is to distract her from doing the thing you don't want her to do and not have her get into that habit.  If she won't switch onto a chew-toy then think up another distraction - throw a toy she likes, call her, anything that stops that habit getting a hold.

If she's chewing the wrong things when you're not there then don't have the wrong things accessible when you're not there - if that means she's in the outhouse or cage, that's what I'd do, until she knows what it's okay to chew and is going to chew that when she wants to chew. 

What's the best way of teaching to 'stay' when she just wants to be with me, but not always practical when I'm busy with something, other dogs have seemed simple by comparison, I don't want to ask too much of her yet, but it's only basics.

Teach stay without it being about not being near you, then start to do it from a little way away.  So for instance, if she likes dog biscuits, teach her to 'stay' until you tell her she can get the dog biscuit (or toy, or whatever.)  Then you start to move away from her while she is staying before she gets the reward.  Then you can start to ask her to Sit and Stay remotely, using the reward she's used to.   Eventually she'll just obey the command wherever she is.

Looked at the NILIF theory, interesting, it's very much as I treat my dogs anyway, I suppose I have been giving Moll more hugs, and Jim to let him know he's not ignored. But it was difficult to just ignore Moll when she was climbing onto the settee with me, or trying to climb in behind me, (no dogs on furniture in this house), she was told firmly 'NO' and pushed off untill she stayed off, she hasn't tried it since. She gets praise and hugs when she gets something right, disappointment in my voice when mistakes (IE indoor messies), she knows.

You can train her using reward and punishment, she's intelligent and wants to please.  But with a nervous collie bitch, you'll make better progress in getting her to be more confident and less cringeingly submissive by striving to make the punishment 'an absence of reward' rather than showing her your displeasure.  So for instance, if she climbs up on the furniture, just ignore her, get up and move away.  When she's on the floor, praise her.  (She will get down, she wants to be with you so she'll follow you!)  She may take three or four times to get the message, instead of only once being told off - but her confidence will grow faster.  Think about it from her point of view - sometimes she comes to you and she gets a hug, sometimes she comes to you and gets told off.  So when she approaches you, she's not sure what reaction she'll get - hence the cringeing and submission.  If the worst that ever happens is that you ignore her and move away, she'll become more confident in her approaches.  And will quickly learn which approaches work.

She's a lucky girl having a new mum who's prepared to work so hard to help her adjust and settle into her new home.   

[ellisr]

my collie had the habit of trying to please and always being under our feet so I took time out to train him to move and sit behind me if I wanted to pass. Everytime I approached he would start to go to the front of me I would call him to the back of my leg by tapping on it and telling him to sit and obviously a reward treat. It took a couple of weeks and then the food treat stopped and I now either just speak to him or pat him on the head and pass without issue.

[Old Shep]

Well done on giving this little girlie a home - Border collies are so intelligent yet sensitive, and sounds as if she's not had the best experiences. Did you get her from a rescue?  If so do they not give any help after you adopting her with these little issues?

The chewing will be a sign of anxiousness - it makes them feel better, so as a previous poster suggests its best to be extra vigilant and only leave in reach what she can have.  It's a shame she didn't settle in a cage because that would have helped here too. Is it worth another try?

With the pooing inside - they usually have a routine if you feed them the same time each day to help you predict when she may need to be outside.  Also if you feed food which produces less poo the other end and firm poo (Sorry about this!!) it gives them a chance to control it better (eg raw bones to chew, raw meat or really good quality kibble).

Stay is quite an advanced command - do you think you are expecting too much too soon here?  You could always pop a lead on here and tie her up somewhere near you when you are doing the jobs? Sounds like she needs a lot of reassurance.

What's she like with loud noises?  Just wondering because its getting to that time of year again with fireworks.  Quite a few sheepdogs are terrified of them, I know more than one owner who drives up and down the M62 with the dogs in the car to get away from the bangs around 5th November.  There's quite a gathering at the service stations :-)