[pikilily]

LOL - she will probably decide that this is all too much hard work!! and refuse to do anything......time will tell!
Emma T

[SallyintNorth]

ooh, do u think james herriot (real name james wight) named himself after heriot? cos he was scottish and studied in that area.?

I think he got the name from Herriot Watt University, where he studied?  Someone will correct me if that's wrong!

[Corrie Dhu]

she is already showing understanding of sit, liedown, that'll do, come, no, and of course her name. i have also been using a whistle to get her attention to be followed by a 'command' depending on whether she comes, stands, sits or lies down- so far so good I hope!! ??
Emma T 

I personally wouldn't use a whistle at all at the moment, if you want to use it to command her in the future anyway.  Just teach her to "here" when called, not come, because Come Bye is the command to go clockwise and don't use stay either as it's too similar to Away which is the command to go anti clockwise.

Her name, lie down and here is all you really need just now.  You want her to be well socialised but not over the top in everyone's face, because you don't want her to have toooo big an ego!

What I do with pups is say "puppy puppy puppy" in a high pitched voice to get their attention, then say here/their name.  Once it's a bit older you dispense with the puppy puppy as you don't need it now.  If you do that religiously you will end up with a dog which always come when you call it's name, because it has never ever ignored that command.

What area are you in, I could suggest a good trainer in your area if you like.

[princesspiggy]

so how do u teach clockwise/anti clockwise?
 

[Hermit]

We use a round pen to teach the directions. Just a circle of fence in which you 1/2 doz sheep. A dog will always stay opposite you and keep the sheep between you so you just walk different ways then the dog will go different ways to compensate. When the dog goes left or right nturally you shout the command to what he is doing, then he will by association learn that command. Does that make sense?

[pikilily]

Aaaahhh, good points Corrie Dhu ! thank you so much...taking it on board immediately  

Meg is already doing the 'Away to me' and 'Come by' *game*...although she doesnt know it. She circles around Oddy our other dog and i put the words to it according to which direction she is going. I do now sort of wonder if this is a good idea, cos she may learn that these commands are to do with circling other dogs rather than sheep??? Maybe i should leave that.

My concept was to just use the oportunity to 'label' anything she is doing which is desirable behaviour.

I am waiting for some training books and videos to arrive, hopefully today. Yes I know that a good trainer is by far the best thing. i am just north of Dundee.  LOL.... i do wonder if Mr Sheep-guru (who bred her) may be a little nose-out-of-joint if i went to a trainer because he trains his own dogs too!  Prob not, because he is so keen for me to learn and have Meg as a useful dog.
thanks again for the timely tips.... i will welcome any more gems you can think of. xxxxx
Emma T

[princesspiggy]

i do wonder if Mr Sheep-guru (who bred her) may be a little nose-out-of-joint if i went to a trainer because he trains his own dogs too!  Prob not, because he is so keen for me to learn and have Meg as a useful dog.

i would think the better trained your dog was, then the better advert for his dogs, as he bred her. i shouldnt think using a trainer would matter, just the end result. good luck

[pikilily]

Yeh, PP.... hes a good guy!! He is so keen to teach me as much as he can, with both the sheep and the dogs. And i am so keen to learn all i can. He would not be 'jealous' I am sure! We are constantly swapping and borrowing things and he comes round on a very regular basis to check my sheep over, and give advice.

It will be the same with Meg too, I am certain. He has kept her brother from the same litter so it will be interesting to see how they develope and change.
Emma T

[SallyintNorth]

Meg is already doing the 'Away to me' and 'Come by' *game*...although she doesnt know it. She circles around Oddy our other dog and i put the words to it according to which direction she is going. I do now sort of wonder if this is a good idea, cos she may learn that these commands are to do with circling other dogs rather than sheep??? Maybe i should leave that.

My concept was to just use the oportunity to 'label' anything she is doing which is desirable behaviour.

Absolutely the right concept, but yes I think I would not label circling the other dog(s) - potentially very confusing, especially if you might ever work two dogs at once!  Quite a lot of people teach using runner ducks, there's not a lot of room for confusion there - unless your ducks graze in amongst your sheep!

There does tend to be quite a bit of rivalry amongst trainers who trial - and I am told that some will give deliberately bad advice to promising newcomers!  Clearly a minefield.... 

[pikilily]

Big LOL,  Sally, i think it is going to be a tall order working the one dog - the concept of me working two is making me giggle!
BTW, i only have four ewes and their associated lambs (9)  so hardly going to be over working Meg!

seriously i will give the *game* around Oddy a miss. Can i ask is it ok to 'direct' or label around me! ie is the dog working clockwise or anti round/from the handler or is it just the sheep....if you get my drift?
emma T

[SallyintNorth]

Can i ask is it ok to 'direct' or label around me! ie is the dog working clockwise or anti round/from the handler or is it just the sheep....if you get my drift?

Absolutely not, no, do not label 'flank' moves with respect to yourself, that would get very confusing when she's working sheep and you off to one side, or in front, or behind...  Always with respect to the sheep (or ducks if used for training.)  Traditionally Come by = clockwise around sheep, Away = anti-clockwise around sheep. 

Derek would say you should be striving to have her not need to look at you at all, so that you can direct her from anywhere and she does not need to take her eye off the sheep.  Given your small flock, unless you think you may do trials, I don't suppose the niceties matter too much.   

[pikilily]

thanks Sally ...... . My dvd (Scrimgeour) arrived today, so after Torchwood tonight i will take a sneaky wee look!
Emma T

[Corrie Dhu]

Aaaahhh, good points Corrie Dhu ! thank you so much...taking it on board immediately  

Meg is already doing the 'Away to me' and 'Come by' *game*...although she doesnt know it. She circles around Oddy our other dog and i put the words to it according to which direction she is going. I do now sort of wonder if this is a good idea, cos she may learn that these commands are to do with circling other dogs rather than sheep??? Maybe i should leave that.

My concept was to just use the oportunity to 'label' anything she is doing which is desirable behaviour.

I am waiting for some training books and videos to arrive, hopefully today. Yes I know that a good trainer is by far the best thing. i am just north of Dundee.  LOL.... i do wonder if Mr Sheep-guru (who bred her) may be a little nose-out-of-joint if i went to a trainer because he trains his own dogs too!  Prob not, because he is so keen for me to learn and have Meg as a useful dog.
thanks again for the timely tips.... i will welcome any more gems you can think of. xxxxx
Emma T

No Honestly don't do that.  You don't put the command on a sheep dog until it is doing the behaviour on sheep correctly.  For instance, if your dog is too tight and you start putting the command on, it will always be tight.  You want it working without commands on sheep, properly (keeping the right distance off the sheep, not biting them etc!) before you put flank commands on.

You don't need to teach a dog to go clockwise and anti-clockwise per say as it is a natural behaviour.  Some dogs are more one sided than others and need to be encouraged to go both ways, but that comes later.

Also I would not let her herd the other dogs.  I never every let my pups do this, as they are potentially learning bad habits and it can go downhill into nipping the other dogs etc.

If the person you bought her from is local and does lessons then that's great.  If not, I really don't think he will mind you finding someone local.  You really need to go at least once a week to make progress.  I am a Shepherd and trial my dogs at National level but I still go for lessons weekly with a top handler.  It is very worth it whatever you hope to achieve with the dog, because at the end of the day you are training a dog on sheep, which have feelings too, so it needs to be done right.

At this stage you just want basic obedience, let her be a puppy and forget about her sheep dog career until she is 8 months plus.

[feldar]

Is it possible good people, to train a much older dog to sheep? We know of a rescue collie who is 4 yrs old and shows sheep dog behaviour and the new owner would like to try her with sheep.

[Maggie]

@  Cracking wee collie there Emma.  I agree totally with Sally and Rosemary, especially about D Scrimgeour's methods.  I have his dvd and book here.  We have an 18 month old who is grand daughter to DS's famous *Ben*, albeit via AI. 

To be honest she (Schollie) is hubby's dog so I've been interested in seeing how he trains her.  I felt his mistakes were in taking her up to the sheep way too soon and coming in all chuffed and proud because he thought he'd already taught her the come by.  Anyway, she's only started proper lessons with a trainer in the last couple of months and still has a way to go.  Be patient!  She'll come good.

@Feldar.  I had two collies over the age of 4 when I first got six sheep ten years ago.  With no formal training and a bit of sheer luck, they both managed to work the sheep satisfactory to my needs.  Neighbouring farmer used to have a jolly good laugh at us though lol. Good luck.