[Padge]

not a subject question or anything of any note 'cept that........we have been searching for two particular breeds of sheep that actually we already keep and are looking to expand. Now those of us with sheep know that the market is flourishing pretty well at the moment....or appears to be...and long may it continue...BUT....there are two things that astound me....
1....is the price some breeders are asking for their livestock.....now i know you pay for good breeding etc....name of the game i s'pose but just shy of £300 for a ewe lamb
and 2......why do so many people expect to be given livestock or would grudgingly pay a few quid if they absolutely had to.....preloved is overloaded with people offering 'loving home'  to unwanted lambs chickens pigs and such like

I'm confused.com
And a bit outraged tho am not sure why......rant over
sorry

[feldar]

Yes i understand how you feel and i do get very cross when i see stock going free to good home, but i know some people find it hard to cull out their animals and are desperate to find them homes.
From our point of view our breed society sets the prices for the season in line with other societies, if a breed is popular then it is reflected in the price, some continental breeds go for alarming amounts, but you are paying for the cost of getting the animal up in tiptop condition and/or show quality. If they are not at this standard then DONT buy them, second quality animals are not acceptable and should be sent for slaughter.
People always want something for nothing and we often get inquiries for our sheep but then they back off when they hear the price, we refuse to sell them cheaper because it takes so much hard work and effort to get them to a certain standard, they have to be fed to achieve this and cake is not cheap.
As producers large or small please keep your prices up but realistic, we are the farmers of the future, and we need to back agriculture.

[Padge]

feldar   i understand supply and demand and that price can be dictated by the marketplace.I also understand 'making hay while the sun shines'
I've said before and will say again that we are not against paying good money for good stock.....have done and will continue to do so...you pays your money you takes your choice
                                                                                    
My astonishment is at the two very different ends of the scale and the expectations at said ends of scale
I don't know of a breeder that shows that would sell his best quality stock.......which then from what you have said would imply anything else is second grade and shouldn't be touched......

I think you actually misunderstood my original post and my bemusement   and in fact one thing i would say particularly with regard to members of this forum is that whether we show or not  given what we do and our motivation for doing so...we are all farmers of the future in our own way  

[Fleecewife]

Obviously it depends on the breed and clearly I am keeping the wrong breed 

There are two sides to this question of feeding up your stock to sell - well probably there are several sides  .  If you are going to go on keeping your newly acquired prize animal fed on grain and with special treatment with a view to doing the show circuits, then buying the biggest and best in a Show and Sale may be a good idea.  But if you want sheep which will do well under normal conditions my view is that you are better to visit the breeder and see what their stock is like at home, then buy or not according to what you see there.  Show sheep at the peak of perfection are notorious for melting away once you get them home.......

[kanisha]

Just a little question as I'm curious when you are looking at pure bred sheep do breed society shows grade the sheep or is there one winner a couple of runners up and everyone else thanks for comming?

[Fleecewife]

Hi Kanisha - I have just seen my very first real live Ouessants and funnily you are right - they are absolutely tiny, but perfectly formed.  Total show stoppers  

I don't know about all pedigree sheep, but those we keep are graded before any show and sale - we now have a form where a number of points such as 'true to type', 'feet', 'teeth' etc etc are scored - this gives new buyers an idea of what to look for in their possible purchase, but an assurance that every animal has been seen by knowledgeable people and passed as worth buying.  If there is a problem then this is recorded - it may mean that only the butcher would want that animal, or it may be something such as a white spot on a normally black breed - it excludes it from registration but would be fine for use for cross-breeding, if all other points are fine.  This gives information which is useful but allows people to make the final decision for themselves.
In many shows places go down to 7th, depending on how many entries there are.  In major shows, even those animals which are below 7th position are still ordered by the judge, so no - it's not just the top 3 which count.  It is sometimes noticeable that the top price paid does not correspond to the top placed sheep, if buyers have different criteria to the judges

[Padge]

Fleecewife
I contacted a breeder only yesterday to enquire as to the availability of ewe lambs of a particular breed   someone on the net and member of society
the price i was quoted was from him  and yes i was shocked. We neither show nor pump our sheep full of foods grains or anything else and consider that we have fine healthy looking sheep that are a joy to keep and look after and also serve us well.
Friends of ours keep and show a totally different breed and at a show we heard them tell one of their previous customers who was a little put out at not winning a prize that if he was not prepared to pump food into his sheep and lots of it at great expense then he would never win.They have learnt and perfected lots of little tricks to distract a judging eye from an imperfection in the name of winning.......some of the things i've heard and experienced have left me a little disenchanted with societies rules and regs and would be reasoning for not wanting to join any.......

[kanisha]

Hi Fleecewife. sadly the vast majority of Ouessants in the UK are dutch breeding. If you think the ouessants you saw were show stoppers you should see the french ones.  The one thing about the breed is that they ar real sheep not miniaturised to look cute they are hardy lamb outside and self lamb like all good primitives. i hope the breed stays that way.

Re grading you say they are graded before sale  presumably by yourselves?  I ask because I am interested in a grading system rather than a prize system for showing allowing particularly novice breeders to  accurately assses their stock and improve selection within the breed. In established breeds this may be less of an issue but in the Ouessant  this is a concern.

 

[Fleecewife]

With Hebrideans they are graded by the Hebridean Sheep Society.  Members who are prepared to help do this are given 'training' and work in pairs to go through the assessment sheet.  It used to be that someone working on their own would do all the grading - called card grading because different coloured cards were given out, according to the (invisible) score.  There was really no way to know why your sheep had been assigned the card they had, unless you actually saw the grader at work, and they were not all happy to talk.  So, a new system was put in place which gives full information in the form of a printed sheet which explains the criteria used, plus the 'score card' which is signed, so you can go and speak to the grader to discuss your animal.  Apart from the fact that everyone is busy when they are grading to get it done before the sale starts, the new system seems to work well.  It would be interesting if anyone on TAS has seen this system in use for the Hebs and what they think of it.  I feel it should be helpful to new keepers, as long as they understand what is being done and why - certainly the old coloured card system was unintelligible and unhelpful to new breeders, while being unneccessary to those who already knew the breed as they could judge for themselves.

[Fleecewife]

Fleecewife
I contacted a breeder only yesterday to enquire as to the availability of ewe lambs of a particular breed   someone on the net and member of society
the price i was quoted was from him  and yes i was shocked. We neither show nor pump our sheep full of foods grains or anything else and consider that we have fine healthy looking sheep that are a joy to keep and look after and also serve us well.
Friends of ours keep and show a totally different breed and at a show we heard them tell one of their previous customers who was a little put out at not winning a prize that if he was not prepared to pump food into his sheep and lots of it at great expense then he would never win.They have learnt and perfected lots of little tricks to distract a judging eye from an imperfection in the name of winning.......some of the things i've heard and experienced have left me a little disenchanted with societies rules and regs and would be reasoning for not wanting to join any.......

I'm totally with you there and in fact have just been on the receiving end of something similar    That sort of show preparation, especially in a breed with low numbers, can alter the breed entirely - just look at Jacobs and how they have changed from a small agile breed into a much heavier breed, with some huge specimens seen at some shows.  They now lamb indoors, usually in January for those showing, and are fed large volumes of grain to get the size onto them.  A few years ago I even heard someone say that they fed turkey feed to their Jacobs as it increased their size    Obviously that couldn't happen now....  I apologise to anyone who keeps Jacobs and takes offence at what I have written, but I know it is only those who are well into showing who do those things.  When we kept Jacobs they lambed outside with perfect ease and were fed concentrates only when our other sheep were, and they were slimmer and more agile for it, but still much larger than the original type.  Not being greatly into showing, or competitive at all, I don't really understand the drive to win, but I suppose when it gets you it gets you 
Some sheep are of course very much more expensive than others, both according to their breed and according to their individual qualities - but you judge for yourself if those qualities are ones which are important to you and if they are worth the asking price.

[kanisha]

thanks fleecewife that helps alot

[feldar]

Fleecewife i think there may be some who still feed turkey pellets to their show stock, We can never compete with them for size etc
No i can see why people become disenchanted especially about price and i do agree the majority of show sheep are fed for the ring.When in Rome.... the shows are our outlet and our shop window and Yes Padge my show team is for sale and Yes my ewe and ram lambs this year are the best i have ever bred so i am finding hard to pick a team. i try not to keep second quality stock, they go for slaughter.
We have bought from the show circuit before and yes they did melt when we got them home, but Terminal sire sheep no matter what the breeder tells you DO need a certain amount of cake because what commercial farmers want is the bigger sheep as you said supply and demand.
Padge i do agree with you that was a lot for a ewe lamb, but you can shop around  but i also understand why a high price is sometimes set.
It's just my opinion ( surely the point of this forum?) and when i said we are the farmers of the future i mean the way all the old farms are now split up and sold off it will be the smallholders that keep agriculture going in the future
Just my thoughts feel free to shoot me down in flames....aaarh

[Fleecewife]

Not at all - it's good to hear all sides of the argument and it helps to understand the reasons.  A good discussion is great - not so great when everyone is of the same opinion and there's nothing to discuss 

[Padge]

No shooting here feldar my original post was nothing more than frustration and amazement at the two extremes largely fuelled by other subject matter raised and written on the forum.However it has encouraged...even if rather unwittingly....some healthy debate on the whys and wherefores of the showring; pricing and so forth

[feldar]

I do like a healthy debate. OH tells me i am a bit gobby at times and i did once suggest to our society that all sheep should be shown shorn bare especially for the later shows. I think the show lambs really suffer in the heat. You can imagine i was shot down in flames, they can't clip to cover the faults then!!! I will do it one year, i just don't think i've been showing long enough to start a trend yet.