[tommytink]

How close is too close for breeding?

There are two ewes and a tup. All have different Mums. Ewes have a different Dad to the tup. The link is the ewe’s Grandad on their dam’s side is the Great Grandad of the tup (on the dam’s side again). Would this be an issue for breeding?

[shep53]

NO,it is referred to as line breeding

[tommytink]

Thanks Shep 

Just had a quick Google of line breeding - so this scenario is okay and it’s direct brother/sister, Mum/son sort of stuff that’s inbreeding. I’m guessing if all three had the same sire it would be an issue, even with different dams. There’s my homework for later anyway!

[shep53]

 Have a look at Robert Bakewell if you really want to see the art of line breeding

[SallyintNorth]

It also matters what you are breeding for.  If it's meat sheep, frankly a little bit of inbreeding shouldn't make any difference.  if it's pedigree gimmers to sell, it matters a lot! 

We have used our Shetland tup, Nigel Ever Ready Golden Balls, 5 times now, and he is on his daughters now of course.  No issues at all for sheep to eat, or even to keep on as fleece sheep, but we wouldn't keep ewe lambs who are both his daughter and granddaughter on for replacement breeding ewes. 

(We're only breeding for ourselves, and all the ewes who are not related to Nigel, and therefore whose daughters we might keep on for breeders, have at least one other breed in them, so the genetics of our father-daughter pairings carry a lot of heterogeneity, much more than you would get if inbreeding pure bred sheep.) 

[Fleecewife]

I'm glad you wrote that Sally, saved me the effort 


I love Nigel Ever Ready Golden Balls, can't stop sniggering.

[Richmond]

Reading this with interest as I need to source another ram this year, purely to produce lambs for meat, but need something to cover both Wiltshire Horn and Soay ewes. We have 3 entire ram lambs growing on atm (WH x Soay) and would be tempted to keep one apart from the fact he is related to the WHs (mum and 2 aunties) and 2 of the 4 Soays (half sisters). Would be cheaper to use our own home bred ram (and no need for quarantining etc) than buying in. But discarded the idea as too closely related.

[SallyintNorth]

Reading this with interest as I need to source another ram this year, purely to produce lambs for meat, but need something to cover both Wiltshire Horn and Soay ewes. We have 3 entire ram lambs growing on atm (WH x Soay) and would be tempted to keep one apart from the fact he is related to the WHs (mum and 2 aunties) and 2 of the 4 Soays (half sisters). Would be cheaper to use our own home bred ram (and no need for quarantining etc) than buying in. But discarded the idea as too closely related.

Personally, for meat sheep, I'd use the home bred.  As long as he's an excellent sheep, and of course be alert for any issues in the youngsters which might lead you to not use him a second time.  (Eg., my previous Shetland tup, Chad, was awesome, but when I used him on his half-sister (same sire), I got lambs with poor feet.  So I didn't repeat that pairing.) 

[shep53]

Close line breeding is used to bring out the best attributes But it can also really show up any defects .    Personally i would not consider a  wilt x soay as a meat producer , you could produce lambs that have the size of wilts or the smallness of soay  even out of wilt ewes , why ? do you have 2 different breeds at the opposite ends of the size spectrum     ,it must make feeding awkward ?

[SallyintNorth]

If it's meat lambs to sell fat, I'd agree, but if it's for meat for friends and family, I can completely see why you'd be happy with the combination.  The first, it's all about grading / conformation and weight, the second it's (almost) all about flavour

[twizzel]

I can see what shep is saying. Using a crossbred as a sire will give you lambs that could either be more WH or more Soay, and then add in any genetic defects which could rear their head with being inbred, it’s a no from me. If you’re only using a ram to produce meat lambs, a good quality pure or pedigree shearling ram of your breed choice should easily offset the purchase price, as he can stay for much longer than a ram that you’re keeping daughters from.

[Richmond]

Close line breeding is used to bring out the best attributes But it can also really show up any defects .    Personally i would not consider a  wilt x soay as a meat producer , you could produce lambs that have the size of wilts or the smallness of soay  even out of wilt ewes , why ? do you have 2 different breeds at the opposite ends of the size spectrum     ,it must make feeding awkward ?

When we started with sheep we wanted animals that were hardy and would do ok on our land (dry, sandy soil, poor pasture). We also wanted sheep that we find attractive. We like horned sheep. Not bothered about fleece so chose shedders to eliminate the need for shearing (not many choices there). After extensive reading these were the two that ticked the boxes. We only want meat for ourselves and a little extra to sell to friends and family (and yes the flavour is also important - we find our sheep taste soooo much better than the local Texels).

We don't have many sheep - currently 9 adults and 6 lambs. Pure Soays grow slowly whilst the WH X Soay makes a good size in 6 months. We want to get a bigger ram so we can produce something a little larger out of the Soays but he's got to tick the boxes, as before. I'm concerned a pure WH ram on the Soays might be too large though. 

Feeding isn't an issue. They all do fine on just grass with added hay in the winter. The in lamb ewes are separated from the main flock a few weeks before lambing and they get a small ration of ewe nuts just pre and post lambing.  The lambs grow well on mother's milk and grass alone.

I really do appreciate all your input and expertise - and apologies to Tommytink for hijacking this thread!

[Legamin1]

Different Registered breeds will have slightly varying standards.  But at minimum the sheep should be no closer than grandparent and grand-lamb(?) on one side only.  If you are breeding strictly for meat you can bread closely without too much issue for a couple generations but you start seeing issues crop up such as stunted growth and the occasional malformation of a limb.  Increased frequency in genetic disease can crop up and become persistent.  If you have sheep that you want to breed for carcass size (meat sheep) you can sell off one of your rams and use the proceeds to purchase a ram that fits your breeding program but is unrelated.  If you are well known in your breeding community you may find that there is another breeder interested in just trading one healthy ram for another.  Best of luck!

[Richmond]

In the end I decided to purchase an unrelated ram. A Norfolk Horn as it happens.