[robert waddell]

and the first to go public the halal ones

[Fleecewife]

 'Sanctions' are all about refusing to import goods from countries whose politics we don't agree with and the British Government has certainly used those.  There is a strong movement here to support sanctions against countries with poor animal welfare records, as well as those with poor human rights records - although for some reason Britian as a whole doesn't seem to be making too big a protest against Guantanamo - yet.
If you think back over recent years you will remember some of the changes which have been made as a result of public outcry. Changes in the way veal calves are raised - previously they were kept in the dark to keep the meat white, now they have straw and fresh air.  There were huge public protests about live exports of animals which were going to be slaughtered on arrival in countries such as Italy - as a result we now have strict laws governing the transport of animals both within this country and overseas (and as farmers we moan about them, but the standard of welfare as a result has improved). Think about the organic movement, which includes animal welfare, new laws controlling just how animals are slaughtered (which could do with further improvements - I wrote this before 'halal' was mentioned but that's what I'm thinking of), the sudden awareness of how people can be inadvertently cruel to pigs in the case of the 'tea cup' pigs, through ignorance and mistaken anthropomorphism. We can change people's attitudes to cruelty, by education, laws and publicity - this applies overseas as well where some countries have worse records than our own - although many countries have higher welfare standards than we in Britain do.
So I go back to your original statement that factory farming has to be viewed with some tolerance - it doesn't where cruelty is involved . Factory farming is not essential to humanity's survival, in fact we would do better in the West to eat less meat, although it could be considered essential to the survival of big business in the agricultural sector.
Opinions vary as to what is cruel, certainly - we need more scientific exploration of what causes stress to livestock, to gain an objective view.  But we should not just accept the status quo simply because someone else says things are fine.

[old ploughman]

Factory farming does not necessarily equal cruelty - you are every bit as likely to see 'cruelty' on a smallholding. The vast majority of farmers are only too aware that poorly looked-after animals dont 'do well' and dont produce - it is not in the interests of the farmer to ill-treat or distress an animal. Most of us care deeply how our animals are looked after and treat many of them as friends for the time that we have them - I reared many of our milking cows from calves and there was a strong bond between us (from both sides).

I can only agree with the comments on here that the supermarkets are to blame to a large extent - controlling prices and sqeezing the margins of the producer. Economy of scale is what is driving the creation of super size farms but the welfare of the animals will still be far better than in the countries that the supermarkets source their supplies from when they have driven all the home producers out of business.

Incidentally, we have a couple of farms locally who are going up to over 1000 cow milking herds - there is the usual outcry but what isnt realised is that both these farms are already milking that number of animals but on 2 or 3 units - what they are trying to do is bring the animals onto one site so that overheads are reduced.

With regard to the slurry lagoons mentioned in the programme - the reporter did point out that there was no smell from the excrement and no clouds of flies. It was pointed out above that this excrement was spread on crops - well what the heck do you think happens now?? What annoys me about the people near the proposed site who are protesting is that if it was not near them they wouldn't worry and continue to buy their cheap food from the supermarket - hipocracy in its worst form.

[robert waddell]

battery egg production banned in the UK still on the continent see this wks Scottish farmer
sow crates and stalls banned in the UK still on the continent
water quality (cant remember the bug that is in European water but not in British water) billions spent to eradicate a non existant threat
broiler chickens pioneered by the yanks adopted by the British chickens fed a high protein diet cant absorb it so the litter was reprocessed to fed them again
meat and bone meal (this is planned to be  reintroduced) i remember the parliamentary lobiest on TV supporting the industry when BSE was broadcast on TV supporting the change from batch processing to continuous flow then the stupid farmer with blame heaped on his door was deemed to be the bad one
i am sorry but you have to be tolerant of others farmers are not the ogres here but the suppermarkets
well said the old ploughman

[Fleecewife]

<<With regard to the slurry lagoons mentioned in the programme - the reporter did point out that there was no smell from the excrement and no clouds of flies. It was pointed out above that this excrement was spread on crops - well what the heck do you think happens now?? >>

It's spread on the fields, but not onto growing crops.  In the programme it showed neat slurry being sprayed onto what looked like 3' tall maize. Ideally slurry should be injected into the ground, and there should be a limit on just how much goes onto each field.  They were using digesters which is good practice, hence the lack of smell, but it's not a good idea to spread liquid manure of any kind directly onto plants.

[Fleecewife]

<< Factory farming does not necessarily equal cruelty - you are every bit as likely to see 'cruelty' on a smallholding >>

I agree and have said that in a previous comment.  However, when cruelty is present on a factory scale, far more animals are made miserable than when it occurs on a smallholding, or even a farm scale.  I am well aware of the cruelty which can go on on farms - one of our neighbours is now banned from keeping animals because of his poor stockmanship. Also, I grew up on a farm in the 50s and 60s when things which were commonplace then are now seen as poor welfare or cruel. I like to think that very little happened on our farm which was doubtful, but looking back there were inevitably things which I wouldn't do now and which are now legislated against - because as a society we have learned better.
I am quite surprised and dismayed that, as smallholders (presumably, otherwise why are you here) you all seem to be denying that there may be a problem with animal welfare on these factory farms.  Whether the situation is better or worse than in other countries, or on smaller farms, if there is cruelty or mistreatment then that is unacceptable. We should surely all be open-minded enough to at least consider the possibility that these animals may need protecting, rather than denying that anything could be wrong. Just because we may think that all other farmers must be like us and have their animal's welfare at the forefront of their minds, it doesn't mean that it is so - there are good and bad people in all walks of life.  Animals destined for meat cannot speak for themselves so we should be constantly checking that their welfare is well provided for, whether they are living on a smallholding, a family farm or a commercial factory farm.
Take battery hens for egg production - this first came into being in or just after the First World War I believe and seemed a brilliant idea.  The hens were warm and dry, with food available all the time, their droppings fell through mesh so they weren't standing in them, and their eggs rolled away so were not pecked, the hens didn't go broody and it was quick and efficient to collect the eggs. But it was noticed that the hens bullied and pecked eachother - signs of stress.  Only recently though has it been accepted that we can improve the hens welfare by fairly small alterations in their environment, to reach a compromise which currently suits everyone.
As well as a producer, I am also a consumer and on occasion I buy in the big supermarkets.  However, I do have a right to choose, and I choose not to buy hyper-cheap meat because I disagree with the cruelty of the production methods and the constraints put upon the breeders  - many other shoppers also make this choice, so not everyone shopping in a supermarket is a hypocrit, unless you class just shopping there as being one - it's a difficult question these days

[Riggy]

Fantastic post Fleecewife!

I agree with everything you say. I wasn't denying that there cannot be cruelty in factory farming. What I was trying to say is that factory farming does not automatically mean cruelty, any more than small holding automati cally means no cruelty.

[Mr Pig]

Please don't fall into the trap of believing that supermarkets sell cheap food because they don't. They buy food cheaply and sell it at a high profit margin. Many cuts of meat are no cheaper than you would find in an independent butchers. Eye-catching offers to entice the shopper are funded by the producer, not necessarily with any great relish. Just consider the following facts:

If we go back to 1995, a farmer, according to official statistics from BPEX, an offshoot from the old Meat & Livestock Commission, could expect to receive 94.5p/kg for a live pig for pork. In 2009 that had risen to 105.5p/kg. However, when adjusted for inflation, that 11% increase changes to a real decrease of 22%. Bear in mind that farmers do not fix the prices they receive, they are set by the market, the huge supermarkets, processors and manufacturers.
 
Over the same period according to the same source, retail prices for pork shoulder joints rose by 16% and a leg and fillet by almost 20% - in real terms after inflation has been stripped out. In other words, in real terms, the big retailers have taken 22% out of the farmers' pockets and nearly 20% out of the housewives' purse and pocketed the difference! That's why the likes of Tesco regularly reports £3bn - £3,000,000,000 - net profits while increasing numbers of British farmers go bust.

SUPERMARKETS DO NOT SELL FOOD CHEAPLY.

[Fleecewife]

Thank you Riggy, I'm glad we agree 


<< That's why the likes of Tesco regularly reports £3bn - £3,000,000,000 - net profits while increasing numbers of British farmers go bust.>>

And when they read out the profits on the News it's always with a big smile on the newsreader's face    You are right in that the big supermarkets have producers in a death grip.  It's not just food stores though - M&S can dump manufacturers who produce solely for them, with no warning and they have done this, leaving the manufacturers bankrupt.
My original point was that farmers do have some freewill in who they supply and how they rear their animals.  Increasingly many are coming to see that the big supermarkets are not a friendly force to deal with.  And yes, the supermarkets then go overseas for supplies - but our Goverment should have in place a trading system which supports home production.

[egglady]

I think more and more people (certainly those in my circle of friend and acquaintances) are either producing their own meat or are buying locally at such places as farmers markets.  some of my friends and family have even gone veggie rather than eat supermarket 'cheap' meat.

surely somewhere along the line this will make a difference to the supermarkets...or am i just being naive?

there is a great book i am in the process of reading called "we want real food" and it is scary to hear of some of the processes being adopted nowadays - and how easily things could be remedied - but wont be as not the same profit margins for the big producers.

after reading 3 or 4 pages, my 14 year old milk loving son (he can easily drink a litre a day) announced that we "had to get goats" as the milk that we are buying from the supermarkets has no goodness left in it! maybe it's the next generation that is going to be making the big changes.....

[waterhouse]

I do hope so.  I worry that with all the budget cuts a lot of people will just have to compromise on food standards.  But maybe enough will stop buying expensive processed crap and start making meals from the components like we used to.