[Richmond]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-63059558

[Fleecewife]

I noticed there is a concentration in Attleborough. A couple of years ago I saw the poultry processing factory there that my Dad owned in the '60s featured as a centre of infection.  Hmm. I used to get up at 0415 to help load turkeys to arrive at Attleborough for 0700, before getting the bus to school. Being Norfolk, there were many farmers' daughters at my school so perhaps no one noticed the deep litter whiff 


I agree that we should be vaccinating all poultry and birds in zoos and wildfowl centres as lockdowns have simply not worked.  Now for DEFRA to accept that.

[Anke]

I agree that we should be vaccinating all poultry and birds in zoos and wildfowl centres as lockdowns have simply not worked.  Now for DEFRA to accept that.

Until the efficacy of the vaccine has been proven and more importantly that vaccinated birds cannot infect non-vaccinated ones it seems non-viable. And given the (monetary) value of a hen/turkey is really quite low (and egg/broiler/turkey producers' margins concequently too) it won't happen soon because the economics don't stack up.


DEFRA hasn't even accepted the currently available bTB vaccine, because you cannot tell vaccinated animals from infected ones, so what chance has a chicken/broiler that sells for 2 quid after 7 weeks of life in a massive shed...


Also I firmly believe we shouldn't be interfering with the natural world by vaccinating wild birds either - it will just have to run it's course. As sad as seeing loads of dead birds around, this is nature's way of re-calibrating equilibria, the virus will over time weaken and birds will become immune to it. And we as humans should not decide to interfere in everything just because we want to eat far too many eggs and chicken meat.


But that's just me...

[Christian]

All poultry keepers should have their 'flu vaccinations.  I get one routinely for being old and decrepit but we should all have one to reduce the risk of mutations happening from human to birds.  Shouldn't we also be vaccinating birds against avian influenza to prevent zoonotic mutations?

Hi Fleecewife, always a good idea to get the flu vaccine, old and decrepit or not  . However - it's not going to help against any nasty bird flu mutation - the curent bird flu strain and the (human) vaccine strain are too different. There is a good news, though - even after mutation, the bird flu strain is very unlikely to cause any human health problem. As for the birds, though.....   

[Richmond]

All poultry keepers should have their 'flu vaccinations.  I get one routinely for being old and decrepit but we should all have one to reduce the risk of mutations happening from human to birds.  Shouldn't we also be vaccinating birds against avian influenza to prevent zoonotic mutations?

Hi Fleecewife, always a good idea to get the flu vaccine, old and decrepit or not  . However - it's not going to help against any nasty bird flu mutation - the curent bird flu strain and the (human) vaccine strain are too different. There is a good news, though - even after mutation, the bird flu strain is very unlikely to cause any human health problem. As for the birds, though.....   

That's not what the vet implied when he inspected our birds. He told me the authorities were very concerned about it mutating into a form that would affect humans similarly to Covid. They were also concerned about it affecting pigs. He told me we shouldn't be eating our eggs or chicken just in case any were infected as we were putting our health at risk! Needless to say I haven't been following that advice - what a waste of good eggs!

[Christian]

Hi all,

Richmond, that is very interesting and it probably is right to be cautious. However, I don't think that this is the offical line:

The vast majority of human cases [which are very few!] have reported contact with poultry and there is no reported evidence of sustained human-to-human transmission. No major changes have been detected in recently characterised viruses from human cases.

(see https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/risk-assessment-of-avian-influenza-ah5n1/risk-assessment-of-avian-influenza-ah5n1-third-update)/.

Good old NHS also states that:

You can't catch bird flu through eating fully cooked poultry or eggs, even in areas with an outbreak of bird flu

(https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/bird-flu/)

Enjoy your (boiled) eggs, don't breath when collecting....

[Fleecewife]

All poultry keepers should have their 'flu vaccinations.  I get one routinely for being old and decrepit but we should all have one to reduce the risk of mutations happening from human to birds.  Shouldn't we also be vaccinating birds against avian influenza to prevent zoonotic mutations?

Hi Fleecewife, always a good idea to get the flu vaccine, old and decrepit or not  . However - it's not going to help against any nasty bird flu mutation - the curent bird flu strain and the (human) vaccine strain are too different. There is a good news, though - even after mutation, the bird flu strain is very unlikely to cause any human health problem. As for the birds, though.....   

There is also the other option: that human influenza gets picked up by birds, captive and wild, it mutates and comes back to us in a very much more virulent form.
We cannot know just how mutations in diseases will go.  Most will not be viable but it only takes one successful mutation to cross the species barrier, where it will be free to mutate away happily unchallenged, and we have another pandemic.  There will be more pandemics because our world is so overcrowded, we just need to try our hardest to prevent successful mutations catching hold.  This is the point of vaccinating poultry, wildfowl and humans [member=3211]Anke[/member] , not finance. If you lower the incidence of disease in a population then it has fewer opportunities to infect others and to cross species barriers. The same principle holds for other livestock such as swine, cattle, also pets.  Everyone who keeps pets and animals should do their best not to expose their animals to human disease and our best way to achieve this is to be vaccinated against any disease for which a vaccine is available. In many countries owners come into very close contact with their animals and think nothing of sneezing, coughing, spitting near them.  This is how diseases cross the species barrier.

[Richmond]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-63121931

[Richmond]

Just had my second inspection.  Usual routine - observing turkeys and chickens, and swabbing all waterfowl.
The blue protection zone round us won't be revoked till at least December, but by then the whole country will be in full lockdown anyway. It's coming soon apparently - be warned folks. And could be indefinite. 

[Richmond]

Mandatory housing measures for all poultry and captive birds in Norfolk, Suffolk and parts of Essex are to be introduced from 00:01 on 12 October 2022, following a decision by the United Kingdom’s Chief Veterinary Officer.

The housing order legally requires all bird keepers in these hotspots to keep their birds indoors and to follow stringent biosecurity measures to help protect their flocks from the disease, regardless of type or size. Bird keepers are advised to consult the interactive map to check if they are impacted and should then read the regional AIPZ with housing measure declaration which sets out the requirements in Norfolk, Suffolk and parts of Essex.


And the vet said to me if not in an actual building then the only type of acceptable covering on pens is a waterproof covering eg corrugated plastic. Mesh or net or chicken wire is NOT acceptable. My chicks are all in weld mesh pens but these apparently aren't good enough. The outlay to reroof everything is going to be awful. We are starting to cull some of our birds now as physically cant get them all under cover.

[PK]

It doesn't appear that the visiting vet is correct. The housing order schedule states that a fully netted run is acceptable (maximum gauge 25mm) but food and water is required to kept indoors.

[Perris]

another option is to set your birds free, since they can and do do nothing about wild birds.

[Richmond]

I asked the vet why the gamekeeper can legally release 2000 pheasants a short distance from us and yet we have to shut all our birds up. He just shrugged and said " different rules".

And PK, I did question the roofing situation but the vet said it has to be waterproof. We can't use tarpaulins here - too windy - which only really leaves the corrugated plastic option for outdoor pens, which isn't durable long term, or stuffing all the birds in a stable (not doing that).

Anyway, surely the very act of shutting birds inside contravenes one of the Five Freedom rules, the one that says they should have freedom to express natural behaviour? Geese can't graze in a stable!

[Fleecewife]

There are FOUR new confirmed cases today, not just in East Anglia but all over England.


The authorities really do need a rethink of tactics.

[Marches Farmer]

I have just sent an e:mail to Mark Spencer, the new Farming Minister, (mark.spencer.mp@parliament.uk) pointing out that the 11-month ban on poultry sales is having a disastrous effect on rare breeds, as there's nowhere to reliably sell surplus stock or inspect a selection of new genetics to prevent inbreeding depression.  I will let you know the response but recommend as many folks as possible doing this.  I didn't breed in 2020 or '21 but had to this year as the birds were laying less, getting more likely to succumb to bad weather and eggshells were getting thinner.  I would normally take the surplus cockerels to market one by one and spread their genetics through other breeding flocks, but I somehow don't think either Mark Spencer or Christine Middlemiss will be offering to help me cull them.